St Clare's reread

[Irene Malory Towers]

Much to my surprise I am enjoying this more than I thought I would have as I consider St Clare's the poor relation of Malory Towers. The series gets batter and by book 5 it really is very good. My main issue is that EB mainly focuses on the newcomers and the main characters like the O'Sullivan Twins, Hilary, Kathleen, Sheila are barely mentioned after the first book. I wonder if she took some of the characters from St Clare's and developed them more fully in Malory Towers - eg Darrel for Pat - both hot tempered (both rub their noses when they are annoyed), Alicia for Janet and Bobby, Bill for Bobby as well, Zerelda for Sadie. The only character she attempts to develop is Alison but at the start of every book she is as silly as ever.

The first 2 books aren't that great though. I also think that Erica is far worse than Margery. I found the whole scene of Margery rescuing Erica utterly ridiculous. As though a head would let a school girl climb up a pole and rescue someone on her back thereby endangering both of them. What they would have done is provide a make shift trampoline for Erica to jump into. And the kidnapping scene of Sadie and being rescued by Carlotta's circus cronies also was ridiculous. We do know that EB created these somewhat preposterous and unrealistic episodes for enjoyment and drama. She didn't care whether they were realistic or not. Similarly she didn't have an eye for detail and made many mistakes in most of her series with inconsistency . She was writing lots of books though.

However. what I do like are the characters and the way they learn their lessons, albeit within just one story, eg Bobby, Prudence, Mirabel, even Angela who unfortunately reverts back to her snobby self by the subsequent book I have just finished Claudine at St Clare's and have always loved it. It is of course so politically incorrect - to associate the French with not liking outdoors. sports etc. but still I love her. She comments perceptivefully - for example when told off by Angela for not having honour because she ate some strawberries for the parents she tells Angela off for having an evil tongue !! Wonderful stuff. I am looking forward to the last book which I will read tonight.

[Hannah]

As though a head would let a school girl climb up a pole and rescue someone on her back thereby endangering both of them.

I'm not sure she had much of a choice - Margery probably stormed towards the ladder and everyone was too stunned for a moment to grab her. Once she was up there was no way of getting her down seeing that she didn't react to calling her.

I've now finished the second book.

Something I've already noticed before is that Mamzelle usually uses "vous" even if speaking to just one girl. When I had my French lessons (of course several decades later and in another country) it was "tu". I assume it would be "tu" in the UK nowadays too?

Another thing I've wondered about before is how stuffing a handkerchief in your mouth stops you from laughing (it's in this book but the girls at Malory Towers use the same method). I can't imagine that helping me not to laugh.

There's another victim of editing - "I shall spank" you becomes "I shall punish you". At least this alteration makes sense and is not as silly as changing a spanking to a scolding.

[Anita Bensoussane]

Interesting posts.

"Vous" can be used formally for the singular as well as the plural, so I expect it's used in French lessons to maintain a feeling of formality.

Regarding the handkerchief, I suppose it muffles any sounds of laughter but I'd be afraid of choking on it - and afraid that it might not be clean!

I wonder if she took some of the characters from St Clare's and developed them more fully in Malory Towers - eg Darrel for Pat - both hot tempered (both rub their noses when they are annoyed), Alicia for Janet and Bobby, Bill for Bobby as well, Zerelda for Sadie. The only character she attempts to develop is Alison but at the start of every book she is as silly as ever.

Yes, there are definite similarities between certain characters across the two series.

I found the whole scene of Margery rescuing Erica utterly ridiculous. As though a head would let a school girl climb up a pole and rescue someone on her back thereby endangering both of them. What they would have done is provide a make shift trampoline for Erica to jump into. And the kidnapping scene of Sadie and being rescued by Carlotta's circus cronies also was ridiculous. We do know that EB created these somewhat preposterous and unrealistic episodes for enjoyment and drama. She didn't care whether they were realistic or not.

Some of these incidents are stock ingredients of school stories, occurring again and again in books and magazine/comic serials about schools (especially boarding schools). One of the most ridiculous fire storylines I've read occurs in The Only Day-Girl by Dorothea Moore, and there are umpteen kidnappings of circus girls and princesses in girls' comics and annuals of Enid Blyton's era. Enid is quite restrained compared to some other authors!

I've mentioned Angela Brazil's A Fourth Form Friendship (1911) before, as has Tim, as Enid Blyton's St. Clare's and Malory Towers books contain several similar elements.

Tim has already referred to the Miss Webb/Miss Kennedy parallels, and to Aldred rescuing Mabel from the sanatorium, which is on fire. In both A Fourth Form Friendship and The O' Sullivan Twins (when Margery rescues Erica from a burning sanatorium), the girls escape by climbing out of a window down knotted sheets which they've tied to a bed.

During the school holidays, Aldred stays with Mabel and gets to know her boy cousins. One of them, Godfrey, says of another, Piers: "When Piers begins an argument he'll hold forth for hours together. We don't want to discuss 'Women's Sphere,' or the 'Education Question'! Leave those to the Debating Society, and let's enjoy ourselves!" There is a remarkably similar passage in Summer Term at St Clare's: "She [Prudence] fancied herself at clever conversation, and was always trying to get the other girls to argue about such things as 'Should women rule the world instead of men?' and 'Should girls be given exactly the same education as boys?' 'Oh shut up!' Janet would say. 'Keep that sort of thing for the Debating Hour, for goodness sake!'"

A trick that Aldred plays on Miss Webb is similar to a trick in the Malory Towers series. Aldred slips into the classroom before lessons and chalks the teacher's chair so that when Miss Webb sits on it, a white impression of the cane seat will be left on her black dress. The trick goes wrong when the Headmistress, rather than Miss Webb, sits on the chair. This reminds me of Second Form at Malory Towers when the girls chalk Mr Young's stool and Mam'zelle Dupont's chair - though they use special chalk which is invisible when applied to furniture.

A Fourth Form Friendship was published in 1911 when Enid Blyton would have been 13 or 14 years old, so she might have read it as a teenager. However, it's impossible to say for definite whether or not she was influenced by that book because tricks, mayhem and daring rescues are so common in school stories. The similarities are quite striking though.

[Irene Malory Towers]

I would love to get hold of that invisible chalk. I haven't read much in the way of other school stories. I flirted briefly with the Chalet girls stories but for some reason I didn't like them. Just too preposterous I found and very little humour. Perhaps I should try the Angela Brazil ones. I even have some of her books. I think this is what I love about Enid's school books - such a lot of humour. The non attention to detail even such as inconsistencies throughout the series didn't really bother me, partly as I don't have attention to details myself. So if in one year the dormitory held 8 and then the next year it held 10 who cares. What mattered (to me) was - is there a good story - are most of the characters likeable and the main characters interesting- and does the writing flow well. In both St Clare's especially the latter half and Malory Towers all these are achieved plus there is interesting character development, great humour as well as some truly poignant scenes (more Malory Towers eg Gwendoline's dad, Amanda being rescued etc).

It sounds like Enid was very much influenced by those that had gone before her and had inadvertently or not copied some of the ideas. But this happens a lot. My husband says that JK Rowlings copied loads of ideas from Tolkien. Maybe she did but I find Tolkien indigestible but the Harry Potter books were so much more accessible.

The last 2 books of St Clares move up several notches because of the introduction of Claudine. She injects much humour into the series.

[Hannah]

"Vous" can be used formally for the singular as well as the plural, so I expect it's used in French lessons to maintain a feeling of formality.

Yes, it's more formal but I'd only use it towards adults. It's the same as the German "Sie". At school it's used by the students addressing the teachers (who are Mr./Mrs Surname) but only in the last three years of schooling some teachers use it to address the students, though using the given name instead of the surname.

[Anita Bensoussane]

Thanks, Hannah. It's interesting to hear about the usage. Maybe the girls are addressed as "vous" by Mam'zelle because they're on their way to becoming young ladies (we're led to believe that girls start at St. Clare's aged fourteen, even though the school seems to take them for six years!)

In English, we used to have "thou" for the singular and "you" for the plural. There may be some dialects which have kept that distinction - I'm not sure. Gradually, "thou" came to be associated with familiarity and lack of respect, so "you" began to be used for both the singular and the plural in "polite" society (rather like "vous"). Eventually, "you" became the standard usage across the board. That explains why we say "You are" when talking to one person, even though it would be more logical to say "You is". Because of its history, the plural form of the verb is still used with the singular "you".

Some dialects have "Yous" (sometimes spelt "Youse") for the plural version of "You", though I don't know when that form arose.

[Hannah]

I've only ever seen "thou" in old texts, usually religious ones like quotes from the Bible or in songs.

I've never pondered about "you is" or "you are" seeing that in German there are many different endings, therefore nothing struck me as odd .

I'm wondering if maybe vous is used by Mamzelle because she's probably lower on the social ladder than the girls? It would be interesting to know how younger students were addressed in French back then.

[Anita Bensoussane]

I would love to get hold of that invisible chalk.

It does sound fun! My sister and I had great success with the plate-lifting trick as children (which is used in Second Form at St. Clare's). We played it on our grandad and he kept adjusting his soup bowl and his glasses, and looking puzzled, before eventually announcing that something was wrong with his bowl! My friends also fell for a trick I played in school. I turned up wearing a short, dark, curly wig and said I'd had my hair (which was long, fair and straight) styled. They believed me but most of them preferred the "new style" to my normal look, so perhaps the joke was on me!

I haven't read much in the way of other school stories. I flirted briefly with the Chalet girls stories but for some reason I didn't like them. Just too preposterous I found and very little humour.

I've only tried a couple of the Chalet School books but I found them too earnest as well. I'm not keen on Anne Digby's Trebizon series either. The school has a depressing feel to it as the pupils seem fairly isolated and the staff unsupportive. Rebecca Mason makes a few friends but there doesn't appear to be a strong bond of friendship between them. I do quite like Angela Brazil and I've also enjoyed the few titles I've tried by Josephine Elder, Dorita Fairlie Bruce and Elsie J. Oxenham. However, none of them sparkle with humour the way Enid Blyton's school stories do. She must count as one of the best British writers of boarding school stories, even though she's chiefly known for her adventure and mystery series.

Having said that, my favourite school story books are the four by Antonia Forest (about the Marlows at Kingscote), though they're part of a longer series which includes books set outside school (they're all well worth reading, though I struggle with the overload of 1960s slang in The Thuggery Affair). Antonia Forest's school stories seem particularly "real" somehow. We get to know the main characters very well and I love the storylines about school plays (one of which is adapted by the girls themselves from a well-known book).

It sounds like Enid was very much influenced by those that had gone before her and had inadvertently or not copied some of the ideas. But this happens a lot. My husband says that JK Rowlings copied loads of ideas from Tolkien. Maybe she did but I find Tolkien indigestible but the Harry Potter books were so much more accessible.

I wouldn't say that Enid Blyton was copying other people's ideas. It's just that, when working within a genre, the traditions of that genre will influence the story to some extent. At the time Enid Blyton was writing, avid readers of the boarding school genre probably expected such things as dramatic rescues, ragging of teachers and disguised identities to feature, and would have been disappointed if they didn't! Of course, these elements can be presented in all manner of ways and Enid Blyton rings the changes and makes them her own. She was a master of her craft. Diverse plot threads are introduced without interrupting the flow, a large cast of characters is handled with aplomb, and everything is woven together almost seamlessly. The same can't be said of all writers of school stories.

J. K. Rowling is likely to have read Tolkien, but again I wouldn't say she "copied loads of ideas" from him. Both Tolkien and Rowling studied Classics at university (French and Classics in J. K. Rowling's case) and had/have a deep interest in mythology, so that's bound to show in their writing. Besides, fantasy stories often hark back to ancient legends and folk-tales featuring wise wizards, monsters, objects of power, quests, battles, the defeat of evil entities, and themes like greed, envy, loyalty, courage and sacrifice. Therefore, it's not surprising that there are similarities (along with significant differences!)

[Anita Bensoussane]

I'm wondering if maybe vous is used by Mamzelle because she's probably lower on the social ladder than the girls?

That's an interesting suggestion.

[Wolfgang]

In English, we used to have "thou" for the singular and "you" for the plural. There may be some dialects which have kept that distinction - I'm not sure. Gradually, "thou" came to be associated with familiarity and lack of respect, so "you" began to be used for both the singular and the plural in "polite" society (rather like "vous"). Eventually, "you" became the standard usage across the board. That explains why we say "You are" when talking to one person, even though it would be more logical to say "You is". Because of its history, the plural form of the verb is still used with the singular "you".

Wasn't the original conjugation "Thou art"?

[Anita Bensoussane]

Yes, that was the earlier conjugation. As "thou" died out (or became far less popular), together with the associated verb forms "art" and "wert", "You are" and "You were" started being used for the singular as well as the plural "you".

[Hannah]

Regarding tricks: I had an ink blot like in the second book but never used it - I didn't think it looked too convincing. I'm also no good at pretending.
I tried the "come to the staff room after break"-note but the teacher didn't fall for it. I guess I wasn't too capable at disguising my writing (even though I tried) when I was 9 or 10 years old . Unfortunately there was no Fatty among my relations.

I've started the third book and thought for the umpteenth time how lucky we are to have vaccines. I wouldn't end up in quarantine for mumps and would stand a good chance of not getting it or at least in a much milder version.
(And no measles will prevent me from taking an important exam.)

By the way: Are there ever health certificates mentioned in this series (like at Malory Towers)?

[Anita Bensoussane]

I went to a day school so there was no quarantine period for illnesses like mumps or measles there. My sister had mumps at the same time as the two children next door, but I didn't catch it even though I still played with all three of them. Since I wasn't ill, I continued going to school as usual. I still haven't had mumps and have never been offered a vaccination, so I suppose I might still catch it.

My sister and I used to buy tricks from a joke shop but, like your ink blot, Hannah, some of them were disappointing. The black face soap had an obvious hole filled with black powder, the cigarettes that were supposed to look real were clearly fake (they emitted some kind of powder that was meant to resemble smoke but didn't!) and the plastic spiders and flies didn't look natural at all. The snappy gum worked but was a rather nasty trick (it looked like a packet of chewing gum but snapped people's fingers when they tried to take some), and my dad was convinced by the large safety pin that seemed to have gone right through my finger (and the fake blood that went with it!) However, the plate-lifting contraption was the best trick by a mile.

I remember playing a trick on the science teacher in my first term at secondary school (aged 11). Our previous lesson had involved tasting substances, and the teacher stressed that this lesson was different. We were going to do tests on liquids X and Y, and we must not put them anywhere near our mouths. We were working in pairs, and my friend and I decided that she would go up to our teacher and tell him that I had drunk some of X and Y and that I didn't feel well. My job was to put my hands over my mouth and act distressed. Well, the teacher was alarmed and started shouting out that no one must drink X or Y. When he came over to me, he looked so worried that we admitted immediately that it was just a joke. Not a good joke, in hindsight, but we didn't consider that at the time!

[Hannah]

I once had a trick soap. It looked normal from above but there was something on the bottom side. It left your hands blue like after eating blueberries. I think I had a fake spider too but not a good one.

I can well see that the trick you played on your science teacher was very funny from a students' point of view .

[Yak]

I am really enjoying the conversation though there's a huge amount I want to respond to and won't have time to right now. Re Margery's rescue, I think that Miss Theobald DID tell her to come down when she went up the ladder but, short of going up there after her, there wasn't a lot she could do. I do wonder though why the area apparently had only ONE fire engine - was that usual at the time?

One trick I played as twelve year old was something I got from 'What Katy did at school.' One of the characters said that they had inserted something ridiculous into their work to see if the teacher noticed and apparently it was just marked 'good' anyway. So one day when I had to write something about Jesus and the disciples for RE I wrote (in the middle) 'Jesus and his disciples had cold custard for breakfast.' It came back ticked . It was sometime later that it occurred to me to wonder what would have happened had the teacher actually read it .. I assume she would not have been pleased.