"Don't mention the war."

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Wolfgang
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Re: "Don't mention the war."

Post by Wolfgang »

The Finish air forces used the mirrored (compared to the German use) Swastika as an identification symbol (according to the illustrations in a book about military planes I own).
I personally can understand why it is forbidden to show this symbol in Germany, but I can't fail to realise that the ban of it is inconsequent if not to say opportunistic. All over the world the Christian Cross has become a symbol of oppression and genocide (in the name of God) as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if the islamic Half Moon has become become for some people a symbol of oppression and genocide, too, so it would be consequent and logical as well to ban them as well.
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Stephen
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Re: "Don't mention the war."

Post by Stephen »

dsr wrote: 03 Dec 2023, 01:25 I've heard that the Nazi crooked cross was a mirror image of the good-luck swastika. Is this true or just an urban myth?
I had wondered that too but my boss's ones are the same orientation as the Nazi swastika. However, while the Nazi ones were famously corner down to give them a diamond appearance, these are flat side down to make them look more noticeably square.
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Anita Bensoussane
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Re: "Don't mention the war."

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Hannah wrote: 03 Dec 2023, 04:18
dsr wrote: 03 Dec 2023, 01:25 I've heard that the Nazi crooked cross was a mirror image of the good-luck swastika. Is this true or just an urban myth?
I've heard that too, but if I look at the article in wikipedia there seem to be both versions of the "non nazi" swastika.
That's interesting, Hannah. I hadn't heard the urban myth but, according to the link, Hindus call the cross with the arms pointing to the right a 'swastika', so that would apply to the Nazi symbol. The cross with the arms pointing to the left is a 'sauvastika'. The same symbol (both ways round) appears in Buddhism and Jainism, and it also featured in ancient Greek, Roman and Germanic religions. Sometimes the symbols are depicted flat side down, giving a 'square' shape, and sometimes they're depicted corner down, giving a 'diamond' shape.

Yak wrote:It was a Hindu good luck symbol yes and then the Nazis stole it. Unfortunately, I do not think that it will be possible to recover it any time soon.
As it says in the link provided by Hannah, the swastika continues to be used as a symbol of good fortune in many countries around the world - and so it should be. If the association with Hitler is allowed to sully something that means so much to so many people, then Hitler has been handed a partial victory:
Although used for the first time as a symbol of international antisemitism by far-right Romanian politician A. C. Cuza prior to World War I, it [the swastika] was a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck for most of the Western world until the 1930s, when the German Nazi Party adopted the swastika as an emblem of the Aryan race. As a result of World War II and the Holocaust, in the West it continues to be strongly associated with Nazism, antisemitism, white supremacism, or simply evil. As a consequence, its use in some countries, including Germany, is prohibited by law. However, the swastika remains a symbol of good luck and prosperity in Hindu, Buddhist and Jain countries such as Nepal, India, Thailand, Mongolia, Sri Lanka, China and Japan, and by some peoples, such as the Navajo people of the Southwest United States. It is also commonly used in Hindu marriage ceremonies and Dipavali celebrations.
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Re: "Don't mention the war."

Post by Yak »

I entirely agree that it is wrong that the Nazis were able to take it over like this but in the West at least I think that displaying it (though I know that some people do as a good luck symbol) would definitely raise eyebrows. The fact that some people are displaying it in support of Palestine right now really annoys me (I am not commenting on the conflict there in general because I am not sufficiently well informed but displaying a Swastika as a symbol of anti semitism is never going to be acceptable).
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Re: "Don't mention the war."

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

I don't agree with people displaying the swastika out of antisemitism, of course, and I hope that anyone who did that would be arrested by the police. However, some people have had the swastika as part of their tradition for centuries, as a symbol of good fortune, and they should feel free to continue using it in that way.
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Re: "Don't mention the war."

Post by Bertie »

As regards displaying Swastikas in the West in modern times - I agree that, in theory, people should be allowed to display it in the original positive context of 'good luck'. Though I would also say, in reality, there are an awful lot of historic / traditional things that are being changed or removed because we're living in different times and people are offended by them, etc, so you could definitely say it's a little insensitive / indifferent to an obvious huge change in the way the swastika is now viewed by the vast majority of people in the West.

It's like how the significance of certain words change and they become taboo. I'm sure there's parts of the world where the strongest association to the swastika remains the original, positive one. But in the Western world, the strongest association is pretty clearly with the Nazis and their attrocities. So if some people in the West still want to display it for the original meaning, they should be allowed to I guess. But they should also be aware, and understanding enough, that a lot of people may originally have questions / issues with it.
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Re: "Don't mention the war."

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Yes, I do feel that people need to behave with sensitivity. I have a Dean & Son copy of The Three Golliwogs which my mum bought for me when I was five or six. I loved the jolly cover as soon as I saw it and I remember reading it out loud to my younger sister, and the two of us enjoying the humour and laughing together. Therefore, for me the book is associated with love and happiness, and it takes me back to my early childhood. It will always have a place on my bookshelf. I'm aware that some people find gollies offensive, however, so for that reason I wouldn't sit and read it on a crowded train.
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