Readathon - Secret Mountain and Secret of Killimooin

[Daisy]

It has occurred to me in reading this discussion, that the implication is that Enid wrote series of books in a short space of time. There are in fact 2 years and about 30 books between the Secret Mountain and the Secret of Killimooin, including the first 2 Fives books and books and stories of all kinds. I would suggest that any similarities between the 2 books under discussion come from Enid's 'under-mind', with no real intention of repeating plots, places etc. If Enid actually read the last book she had written in a particular series before embarking on the next, I think she would have made sure she did not repeat herself!

[Rob Houghton]

In a way this is exactly what I've been trying (quite badly!) to say. She wrote so many books that there are bound to be many similarities. Usually the similarities are looked on as 'mistakes' rather than intentional!

[Anita Bensoussane]

I would suggest that any similarities between the 2 books under discussion come from Enid's 'under-mind', with no real intention of repeating plots, places etc.

I thought that's exactly what people have been saying in their discussion of the similarities?

[Liam]

I wasn't trying to prove or disprove anything, or undermine your position, as you suggest. I don't feel I need to do that, because everything you have 'discovered is merely conjecture, and can never be anything else.

Why so disingenuous? You have every right to counter any argument I or anyone else make on these forums. I certainly would not enjoy coming here if everything I posted was accepted lock stock and barrel. Or simply ignored. And why so condescending? Why when your logic does not win the day, you claim the other person’s position was illogical from the start? Maybe it was, but you should have stated that as your first argument.

I've found similarities in quite a few books - but I don't look on the idea seriously - just a bit of fun and quite interesting. I'm not trying to argue with you except to say that I believe we could all find similarities and parallels in many many books. The books I cited, and examples I mentioned, I used just to show that similarities can be found anywhere. I don't take what I wrote seriously in any way.

And why can’t you assume that I’m having the same fun as you do in these things? Everything I have said, says so. When you or anyone have made a good counterargument, I have acknowledged it, and rethought my ideas. And the terms I have used in no way suggest I am trying to push anything down anyone’s throat. I have used terms like: “highly speculative”, “suggestion”, “guess”, “hint at”, “parallel”, “similar”, “circumstantial evidence”, and explicit conjecture in the form of questions.

Again you are patronizing - retreating to some superior position that you think you alone occupy. Clearly you are the one that take this thing too seriously.

I've never been a big fan of dissecting books to the extent you seem to enjoy - too much like being back at college/uni! . I'm afraid I find some of your parallels extremely shaky - I can't pretend otherwise.

What is wrong with me being “a big fan of dissecting books”? Each to his own; it takes all kinds to make the world go round; and all that. We each contribute to the forums what we are passionate about. That is what makes the forums interesting and multidimensional. Why belittle another forumite’s approach to interacting on the forums?

You seem to be suggesting that Enid deliberately used these parallels, and that's actually what I find hard to believe. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I have objected before to your claim that I believe EB deliberately constructed these parallels. I’m not going to do so again. Obviously it’s some sort of confusion over language. Obviously you don’t believe as I do that someone could be influenced unconsciously.

We had better agree to disagree.

Is that an order?

Rob, the patronizing air of your posts is so thick I can cut it with a knife.

Still, I hope we can get past this and exchange ideas again as befits these forums.

[Anita Bensoussane]

Crumbs - I know Enid Blyton's books mean a lot to us all and feelings can run high in discussions, but let's not start calling people "disingenuous", "condescending", etc. You talk of "winning the day", Liam, but I don't think Rob was trying to do that - and neither do I think he was being disingenuous or condescending. Several of us have given our views and commented that we agree or disagree with others up to a point, and Rob was doing the same.

It's fascinating to read people's ideas and opinions and this thread contains plenty of meaty and thoughtful discussion. Up to now people have been able to disagree without insulting one another, so let's keep things that way!

[Rob Houghton]

I felt it was becoming a little too personal, so won't be commenting again.

We can't always agree, but everyone's ideas are relevant.

[Liam]

You talk of "winning the day", Liam,

I don’t think there is anything wrong with winning the day, Anita, there just needs to be good sportsmanship about it.

A pity it had to come to this.

I am sorry I did not have more patience, but we all have our limits.

You are the peacemaker here, so I’ll leave the peace in place that you have meted out.

I hope I myself am not discouraged from posting again.

[Anita Bensoussane]

I don't mean to discourage anyone from posting their views. It's just that sometimes discussions can turn into something of a personal battle, and it's nice if we can all share our opinions - including opposing opinions - without feeling that someone must be "right" or "wrong".

[Darrell71]

Everyone will be happy if you post, Liam, the more the merrier.

[Liam]

Thanks, Sunskriti, that means a lot.

[Liam]

It has occurred to me in reading this discussion, that the implication is that Enid wrote series of books in a short space of time. There are in fact 2 years and about 30 books between the Secret Mountain and the Secret of Killimooin, including the first 2 Fives books and books and stories of all kinds. I would suggest that any similarities between the 2 books under discussion come from Enid's 'under-mind', with no real intention of repeating plots, places etc. If Enid actually read the last book she had written in a particular series before embarking on the next, I think she would have made sure she did not repeat herself!

Yes. And maybe it was overwork! Who can fault her if, in all that work, one or two books are not the most original?

From reading quotes from her autobiography, her method was quite intuitive. Stories came to her instinctively. But there must have been times when that new adventure of a particular set of characters did not automatically appear to her mind, and she would have had to do some prodding. But even then, EB was too much the consummate artist to ploddingly construct parallels. But that would not mean that she would not have had to reacquaint herself with particular characters. And if that new adventure did not automatically reveal itself to her, her mind would naturally remain where the last adventure took place.

After the two years and thirty books, as you say Daisy, I would imagine that her mind needed to find something associated with the Secret characters to latch on to. That it was the already used notion of robbers in mountain caves - the Mountain Folk were robbers of people (kidnappers), plus the parallel of Ali Baba had occurred to the characters in Mountain - well, maybe it was tiredness, and also the fact that that notion had occurred doubly in that book, so it stood out more than any other to a tired brain.

Just speculation on my part, of course!

[Daisy]

Yes, thanks for that reply Liam... as you say, it is speculation, something some of us do more of than others!

[MJE]

     I was going to (if belatedly) comment at some length on this, and even wrote out many of my comments as I read the posts they were replying to, before I'd read the entire thread. But then I saw that the disagreement got a bit personal and a bit sensitive, and I thought maybe I wouldn't buy into it, after all. I'm afraid my view disagreed a bit with Liam's, and was more allied to Rob's, but I don't want to either hurt anyone else's feelings or get my own hurt - in the end, I think it's more important to be friends with people here than to show yourself to be right and them wrong.
     But, even if certain parallels can be found between books, I am wary of attaching too much significance to them, and often think they are just coincidence. In summary, I have never seen any particular similarity between "The Secret Mountain" and "The Secret of Killimooin" beyond the obvious common elements (travelling to a remote place and getting embroiled with a remote, isolated society that terrorizes the surrounding districts) - despite the many parallels Liam pointed out. Perhaps some elements from "The Secret Mountain" lingered in Enid Blyton's mind and found their way into "The Secret of Killimooin", quite likely unintentionally; but they are mostly details that don't prevent the plots being very, very different, and I don't attach a lot of significance to that - in fact, in all my life, I never even noticed many of the things Liam listed until I read his list.
     I guess that was the gist of my comments, and I think I avoided belittling anyone or putting them down - so I will go over the more detailed comments I wrote last night some time, and consider whether some of them should be posted or not. But I am very wary of getting embroiled in this at all, beyond what I've just said, so I'm just not sure yet whether to say any more - especially since the comments do tend to differ from Liam's viewpoint.

     Also, it is probably obvious I am drifting away from the forum a bit, so that makes me careful about coming in again, heedless. I don't mean it to happen, and maybe I will come back - but I guess I do have other things going on in my life which are distracting me rather - I'm not even reading books, really, at present; I hope that can change some time.
     I've dropped out lots of time before on this forum, so I am not quite sure how (as measured by number of posts) I have managed to get into the 25 or 30 most frequent posters in spite of that. I have never tried to beat anyone else on frequency, never tried to beat any kind of records; so I suppose it just shows I have been obsessive at other times.

Regards, Michael.

[pete9012S]

   ... in the end, I think it's more important to be friends with people here than to show yourself to be right and them wrong.
  

I enjoyed your thoughtful,sensitive post Michael.
I think the above quote is one of the nicest things I have read on the forums in a good while.

The atmosphere and bonhomie I found on these forums when I first joined was one of the things that drew me to the forums and Society in the first place.

[MJE]

I enjoyed your thoughtful,sensitive post Michael.
I think the above quote is one of the nicest things I have read on the forums in a good while.

     Thank you for your kind thoughts, Pete. I have probably not quite always lived up to my own words, and have inadvertently offended one or two people with my opinions, on occasion.

Regards, Michael.