Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
- Julie2owlsdene
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
I also think that these days, many people want to go on a visit to various locations, that they have read in books, such as The Lone Pine books, which are true locations, and they are reading Blyton's books, such as Kirrin and the island etc, and wondering where that is, and can we go and see it. Many people visit Port Isaac down here in Cornwall, the home of Doc Martin - Port Wenn, totally ficticious of course, but Port Isaac is a real place. And that is probably what Enid's fans are doing trying to find out where Kirrin Island is and the castle, and reading many theories that are incorrect.
I think the reader likes to visualize the places they read about in their own minds, and there is no harm in that at all. For me, when I read a F.F. book I think of Kirrin as Marizion in Cornwall, and Kirrin Island and Castle is Mounts Bay sitting proudly in the bay. I know it's not the location, but that is where it is in my mind, and there is no harm in that, as it brings Kirrin more to life in a way.
So I'm thinking that maybe Enid's readers of the F.F. books, prefer to think of Kirrin Island and the castle as Corfe, as they can visualize Corfe in their heads, and they put in on an island in the bay, and that is what brings the books to life for them. Again, no harm in it, if it brings the books to life, as long as they don't start publishing that Corfe is Kirrin Castle etc etc.
Going back to Eileen Soper's illustrations for a minute, I think she may also have taken a little bit of this castle and a little bit of that castle, from castles she's seen and books she's seen and produced her own Kirrin Castle. That is something that illustrators and artists also do. If I see a scene before me, and take a picture, and a certain tree or building doesn't do the compostion justice, I remove it, or move it, or alter the look. Afterall, it's only a sketch or drawing or painting, not an actual photograph. Of course you have to be exact if it is a commission of a certain scene!
I think the reader likes to visualize the places they read about in their own minds, and there is no harm in that at all. For me, when I read a F.F. book I think of Kirrin as Marizion in Cornwall, and Kirrin Island and Castle is Mounts Bay sitting proudly in the bay. I know it's not the location, but that is where it is in my mind, and there is no harm in that, as it brings Kirrin more to life in a way.
So I'm thinking that maybe Enid's readers of the F.F. books, prefer to think of Kirrin Island and the castle as Corfe, as they can visualize Corfe in their heads, and they put in on an island in the bay, and that is what brings the books to life for them. Again, no harm in it, if it brings the books to life, as long as they don't start publishing that Corfe is Kirrin Castle etc etc.
Going back to Eileen Soper's illustrations for a minute, I think she may also have taken a little bit of this castle and a little bit of that castle, from castles she's seen and books she's seen and produced her own Kirrin Castle. That is something that illustrators and artists also do. If I see a scene before me, and take a picture, and a certain tree or building doesn't do the compostion justice, I remove it, or move it, or alter the look. Afterall, it's only a sketch or drawing or painting, not an actual photograph. Of course you have to be exact if it is a commission of a certain scene!
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
I never assumed that Kirrin Island was a real place, or even inspired by a real place, but I sometimes when I see islands for the first time I think that they are just what I imagine Kirrin might look like.
For me the Soper illustrations are not very satisfactory because I think she draws the island much too small to accommodate all the action that goes on, especially in the Run Away story.
An absolutely ideal Kirrin for me would be Caldey Island near Tenby. Just the right size and right distance from shore, plenty of cliffs and some coves too.
As for Kirrin Castle, it's almost entirely ruined, apart from a remaining tower, so surely almost any old ruin could have inspired it (if any did)?
For me the Soper illustrations are not very satisfactory because I think she draws the island much too small to accommodate all the action that goes on, especially in the Run Away story.
An absolutely ideal Kirrin for me would be Caldey Island near Tenby. Just the right size and right distance from shore, plenty of cliffs and some coves too.
As for Kirrin Castle, it's almost entirely ruined, apart from a remaining tower, so surely almost any old ruin could have inspired it (if any did)?
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
Julie2owlsdene wrote:I'd have to be able to speak to the dead, to answer that one, Anita! I would imagine being an illustrator that Eileen Soper had many many books which had pictures of castles in them, and had taken many photos that inspired her for her work as an illustrator and drew many rough sketches for her work too on her travels.Anita Bensoussane wrote:But which book has illustrations where the castle is similar to Corfe?Julie2owlsdene wrote:I think as suggested, that Enid saw the island she wanted to use in the Channel Islands, as she wrote and told Trevor Bolton, and the castle, well maybe she told Eileen Soper she wanted a ruined castle on the island and Eileen looked through her work of already drawn castles, or a book of castles, or photos and drew one similar to Corfe.
Sorry - I phrased the question badly and seem to have confused you both. When I said "But which book has illustrations where the castle is similar to Corfe?" I actually meant "Which Famous Five book (if any) has illustrations where the castle is similar to Corfe?" Some people have suggested that Corfe Castle became associated with Kirrin Castle because of Eileen Soper's pictures in the Famous Five books. However, when I checked Five on a Treasure Island I found that Soper's drawings of Kirrin Castle didn't look like Corfe Castle. And I was wondering whether she had drawn the castle differently in other Famous Five books, and made it look like Corfe. One thing I did notice in Five on a Treasure Island was that Eileen Soper made the surviving tower look squarish in some pictures but round in others.Moonraker wrote:I think you're taking Julie's words too literally, Anita - unless I'm barking up the wrong tree (always possible)! I read Julie's post to mean that Soper might have drawn Kirrin and Faynights' Castles from sketches she might have made, pictures she might have seen or castles she had visited personally. Not that she had drawn in other books! Of course, we can only speculate about Soper's illustrative locations as with any ideas we might have. I agree with you where you say that neither Kirrin nor Faynights look much like Corfe.Anita Bensoussane wrote: But which book has illustrations where the castle is similar to Corfe? The other day I looked through Eileen Soper's illustrations for Five on a Treasure Island and Five Have a Wonderful Time (because it was suggested that Faynights was also inspired by Corfe), but in those two stories the castles didn't look much like Corfe. Did Eileen Soper portray Kirrin Castle differently in different books?
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
Yes, I see, Anita. And of course, to knock all of this into a cocked hat, Corfe Castle is not on a tiny island, but inland!
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
It is however on a raised mound which from a distance does look a little like an island. I personally think that Kirrin, both as it is written and as it is drawn, is an amalgam of several places with which both Blyton and Soper were familiar. The only safe vision of Kirrin is inside one's own head.Moonraker wrote: And of course, to knock all of this into a cocked hat, Corfe Castle is not on a tiny island, but inland!
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
I agree with Lucky Star on this. I have been to Corfe Castle and it is nothing like I imagined Kirrin Castle to be. Kirrin Island and the castle exist in my mind, I can picture them quite clearly and everyone else will have their own personal images of these places. For this reason they cannot be spoilt and are perfectly safe.
I have also been to several locations mentioned in Malcolm Saville's books and they have been nothing like I imagined. Consequently, this rather spoilt the books for me. I believe Kirrin was a product of Enid's marvellous imagination and the beauty of it is that it can be what WE imagine it to be.
I have also been to several locations mentioned in Malcolm Saville's books and they have been nothing like I imagined. Consequently, this rather spoilt the books for me. I believe Kirrin was a product of Enid's marvellous imagination and the beauty of it is that it can be what WE imagine it to be.
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
I used to live in Weston-super-Mare, and it has an island 5 miles out into the bay called Steep Holm. You can go on boat trips to it. It doesn't have a castle on it but it's a good size and has a little beach, and I always felt a bit like George, being able to look out into the bay and see an island there!
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
I agree that these places exist in each of our minds, and each one will be different.
And Eileen Soper illustrated what was in her own mind too.
And Eileen Soper illustrated what was in her own mind too.
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
Of course there were at least two people who created Kirrin Island for the books - Enid and Eileen Spoer. As readers of the original books we pictured it as illustrated by Eileen.
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
Interesting, Pete. Both islands look very appealing with the castle tower reaching up from the ruins, but neither is as I picture Kirrin Island in my mind. Like Maggie Knows, I imagine more space around the castle.
Eileen Soper draws the children beautifully and her sea actually looks wet, whereas Betty Maxey's illustration is a lot more sketchy. However, I do think Maxey has got George's stance and facial expression spot on - we can see at a glance that George is a strong, rebellious, determined character. And the wiry tufts of grass are a nice touch. Two very different styles, but both have their merits.
Looking again at Five on a Treasure Island, these are the two biggest illustrations of Kirrin Castle by Betty Maxey and Eileen Soper:
Betty Maxey perhaps shows a little too much of the castle still standing, but I think she has got the overall size about right. We can't see the whole castle in Eileen Soper's picture but she includes a lot more texture and detail, whereas Betty Maxey's castle consists of a bold outline with just the odd detail picked out. Maxey's characters look very 1960s-70s and it's a great pity that she didn't include Timmy. Again, I like both illustrations for different reasons. Maxey creates a sense of expectancy, with the four children walking towards a quite substantial-looking ruin and drawing us with them. I feel as though I'm walking just behind them. Soper's drawing shows the children actively engaged in trying to move a huge boulder, and there's a feeling of urgency and excitement. In both images, the circling birds add to the feeling of remoteness.
Neither Maxey nor Soper seem to have had much influence on the way I see Kirrin Island and the castle in my mind's eye.
Eileen Soper draws the children beautifully and her sea actually looks wet, whereas Betty Maxey's illustration is a lot more sketchy. However, I do think Maxey has got George's stance and facial expression spot on - we can see at a glance that George is a strong, rebellious, determined character. And the wiry tufts of grass are a nice touch. Two very different styles, but both have their merits.
Looking again at Five on a Treasure Island, these are the two biggest illustrations of Kirrin Castle by Betty Maxey and Eileen Soper:
Betty Maxey perhaps shows a little too much of the castle still standing, but I think she has got the overall size about right. We can't see the whole castle in Eileen Soper's picture but she includes a lot more texture and detail, whereas Betty Maxey's castle consists of a bold outline with just the odd detail picked out. Maxey's characters look very 1960s-70s and it's a great pity that she didn't include Timmy. Again, I like both illustrations for different reasons. Maxey creates a sense of expectancy, with the four children walking towards a quite substantial-looking ruin and drawing us with them. I feel as though I'm walking just behind them. Soper's drawing shows the children actively engaged in trying to move a huge boulder, and there's a feeling of urgency and excitement. In both images, the circling birds add to the feeling of remoteness.
Neither Maxey nor Soper seem to have had much influence on the way I see Kirrin Island and the castle in my mind's eye.
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
Nice to see the two comparisons from Pete and Anita. I only have the Eileen Soper illustrations and so do not get to see most of these 'modern' illustrations. Personally I prefer Soper. Her illustrations have more depth and more thought going into her work. The other illustrator's work has no depth.
Anita says she likes the sea in Soper's work as it looks wet, and that's because she has drawn in correctly with the sea mirroring the castle. In the other persons work there is no reflections at all. It's just what I would call a rough sketch drawn in haste.
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Anita says she likes the sea in Soper's work as it looks wet, and that's because she has drawn in correctly with the sea mirroring the castle. In the other persons work there is no reflections at all. It's just what I would call a rough sketch drawn in haste.
Soper for me everytime I'm afraid.
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
Very interesting to see the Maxey and Soper illustrations shown side by side. I enjoyed your observations Anita.
I do particularly like the 'wetness' and mirroring effect of Soper's picture - it makes it very rich and more three-dimensional.
One thing I think both illustrators do particularly well is depicting Timmy. Though the type of dog drawn is quite different, the facial and bodily expressions of both are very real and accurate. I'm sure they must both have had dogs, or been around dogs a lot.
Completely agree! Though overall I prefer Soper's ilustrations, I've always felt that Maxey portrays George brilliantly and evocatively, with character in every line of her sketch. I particularly like the illustration that Pete has posted: George, looking rather sternly across the bay at her island. It just sums George up for me, especially in the early books!Anita Bensoussane wrote:I do think Maxey has got George's stance and facial expression spot on - we can see at a glance that George is a strong, rebellious, determined character.
I don't know anything about the technical side of drawing a good illustration, but I do like the strong lines in Maxey's illustrations. Regarding the lack of reflection in Maxey's picture, it just seems to me that the light is different - I get the feeling that it's a broadly lit but overcast day, and it's only by comparison that it seems that something could be missing.Julie2owlsdene wrote:Anita says she likes the sea in Soper's work as it looks wet, and that's because she has drawn in correctly with the sea mirroring the castle. In the other persons work there is no reflections at all. It's just what I would call a rough sketch drawn in haste.
I do particularly like the 'wetness' and mirroring effect of Soper's picture - it makes it very rich and more three-dimensional.
One thing I think both illustrators do particularly well is depicting Timmy. Though the type of dog drawn is quite different, the facial and bodily expressions of both are very real and accurate. I'm sure they must both have had dogs, or been around dogs a lot.
Lucky Star wrote: The only safe vision of Kirrin is inside one's own head.
Yes, I absolutely agree. There might be thousands of Kirrin Islands in existence, and each one equally valid to the visualiser!!John Pickup wrote:...the beauty of it is that it can be what WE imagine it to be.
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Re: Inspiration for Kirrin Bay, Island and Castle?
It seems to me that the illustrations both follow the fashion of their times - more detail and depth in Eileens drawings ( I also prefer her pictures) and a more sketchy modernistic style adopted in Betty's drawings. I also agree that her George is well done but I still prefer Eileen's. I wonder if Eileen's drawings affected the way Enid described her characters in her later books?
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Re: Will the real Kirrin Castle Stand Up?
Hello Anita,Anita Bensoussane wrote:We know that the island and castle which inspired Enid Blyton were in Jersey and, since Enid mentioned that it was possible to walk along a causeway to the island at low tide, I've often wondered if it might have been Elizabeth Castle that she saw.
Julie, I've found Oscar Spain's topic and I've merged it with this thread. It starts near the bottom of page 3.
André and I will be on Jersey on 15th and 16th of May and take pictures of Elizabeth Castle.
When we'll meet at the Spade Oak, we can all look at them on the digital camera if you want.
Now I will check out Oscar Spain's topic on page 3.
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