Children of a different social class

[Belly]

Quite, Robert. The whole 'class' thing interests me. Interesting you mention Benenden, I imagine the girls there at the time you mention would largely have come from old money. Enid, although famous/rich, married to a successful surgeon might have felt a little insecure/intimidated by this. Some feel similarly about the top tier independent schools even now...

[dolly]

I remember when I read the original version of twins at St. Claresthe daughter of the new matron was referred to as a "charity girl". One of the twins said that there is no difference between parents paying the school fees or working for the school fees (for example by doing the job as a matron or cook or something like this). Some of the St. Clare´s pupils must be really snobbish! The attitude of Pat or Isabell was really sensible but it is a real pity that there was a need to argue this way.

[Ming]

Eileen (Matron's daughter) as well as Claudine (Mam'zelle's niece) were referred to as "charity girls" by Angela. She even goes as far as to say, "We'll have the gardener's daughter here next!" (or it could have been cook's). What the twins said was indeed sensible but Angela's words don't surprise me much, as they're muttered by the Honourable Angela!

[Rob Houghton]

Has anyone stopped to think that without these snobbish attitudes from the girls in St Clare's etc the books would only be half as good as they are, and not such entertaining, thought-provoking books?!

I tend to think that the strength of Enid's stories are often the snobbish characters: those we love to hate because they seem spiteful or big-headed, or those that are poor charity cases (like the Taggartys in Those Dreadful Children). Without the class-mix and the disagreements, the books would be less entertaining and also less realistic, I think.

It's still going on today in schools, because one set of kids will ALWAYS think they are better/more worthy than another set: that's the way kids think and learn about the world around them. We, as adults, often do or say 'the right thing' which often includes not being outwardly rude to people, but children don't share that inhibition until it has been 'drilled' into them. That's why kids will often comment that you're 'too bald' or 'too fat' or have the wrong colour jumper on: they just don't care what they say.

To have the upper hand as a child you have to earn the respect of your peers, whether it's for being 'tough', having more money, playing around in lessons or liking a certain pop star. A certain type of 'snobbishness' rules the classroom even today, except that much of the 'snobbishness' revolves around who has the latest mobile phone, the most expensive brand of trainers or the most authentic sports kit...

[Belly]

I agree, Robert.

I enjoy seeing the way Enid handles class issues etc and discussing these aspects as sometimes I believe I can get a feel for the woman behind the text. Agree there is a 'sensible' attitude to these things most of the time but sometimes there is a cutting comment or two that perhaps show some insecurity.

The class system has changed since then but some attitudes seem to remain. How much of it was Enid's view and how much the general middle class view of the time I am not always sure. My Grandmother, born in 1900, used to talk about people being 'in trade' with some disdain and once made the classic comment to her cleaner 'for a working class woman you really are rather nice'! Thing is she was from a middle class background but you might have thought otherwise after a few days in her company! People loved her though ! Even the cleaning lady who laughed at her comments!

[auscatherine]

Just wondering where in the book Sheila's speech is compared to that of a "barrow boy," Catherine? I'm asking because I remember Janet remarking that Sheila talks "like the daughter of the dustman!" (in the chapter titled "A Terrible Quarrel") and I was wondering whether the "barrow boy" reference comes elsewhere in the story, or whether "daughter of the dustman" has been changed to "barrow boy."

This must be one of the updatings, Anita! It seems that dustman has been replaced with barrowboy in the newer editions. I will double check it tonight to make sure I have it right but I am 99.999 percent sure it says barrow boy rather than dustman.

at Belly's grandmother. My grandmother was a terrible snob too. The thing about her though is that she actually came from a poor Irish family and her father was an alcoholic. My grandfather's family (English Protestants with a bit more money) never spoke to my grandmother after he and my grandmother got married. This made me wonder whether my grandmother's snobbishness was more to do with her feelings of inferiority about her own family background.

[Philip Mannering]

To have the upper hand as a child you have to earn the respect of your peers, whether it's for being 'tough', having more money, playing around in lessons or liking a certain pop star. A certain type of 'snobbishness' rules the classroom even today, except that much of the 'snobbishness' revolves around who has the latest mobile phone, the most expensive brand of trainers or the most authentic sports kit...

Totally agree, Robert. I think it's the same in every school... the same old boring matters. I prefer to ignore them. Respect of my peers? Well, who wants to get friendly with all of them?! I should say that the world hasn't really changed much in that sense.

[Ming]

who wants to get friendly with all of them?!

Snob! Not really, I'm not very friendly with everyone, but nonetheless I do help out someone in need. But with my real friends... they all know I'm thick skinned and don't mind saying what I think, and that I expect them to do the same.

I agree though, it is the little incidents of snobbery and pure female cattiness that make the school stories so very interesting. Gwen is a real character! And Angela too, as well as Claudine and Carlotta.

[Moonraker]

I'm not very friendly with everyone... they all know I'm thick skinned and don't mind saying what I think, and that I expect them to do the same.

So long as you're not thick-headed! I'm a firm believer of 'speaking my mind', I happen to believe that that's what it's for - however, sometimes a measure of tact and diplomacy has to used! Of course, when I chat with you, dear child, that is not necessary!

[Julie2owlsdene]

I'm a firm believer of 'speaking my mind',

True, Nigel, this is what it is for, but speaking for myself, I don't always say what I'm thinking, especially if it would cause the other person upset of any kind. Of course if they were being extremely offensive, then I'd say what I thought.

[Anita Bensoussane]

Just wondering where in the book Sheila's speech is compared to that of a "barrow boy," Catherine? I'm asking because I remember Janet remarking that Sheila talks "like the daughter of the dustman!" (in the chapter titled "A Terrible Quarrel") and I was wondering whether the "barrow boy" reference comes elsewhere in the story, or whether "daughter of the dustman" has been changed to "barrow boy."

This must be one of the updatings, Anita! It seems that dustman has been replaced with barrowboy in the newer editions. I will double check it tonight to make sure I have it right but I am 99.999 percent sure it says barrow boy rather than dustman.

Thanks, Catherine. If it does turn out to be a change to the text, perhaps it was made to avoid causing possible offence to readers whose relations are refuse collectors. "Barrow boy" is less likely to cause offence I imagine, being more or less obsolete. Funny, then, to think of it being inserted as an "update"!

Anita

[Philip Mannering]

Snob!

Snob yourself! I think I have made a howler. I didn't mean I was aloof and snobbish and all that, I just said that there are some guys in school you'd be glad to see the back of. One of the great advantages of school, it is!!

About 'speaking my mind,' I must say that I fall in the middle - sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.
As Nigel says, a certain amount of tact and diplomacy has to be used, but only on particular occasions. With friends? Of course not!

[Yak]

Hmm that is strange, to change dustman to barrow-boy... I've never seen that update and it seems a tad on the unnecessary side to me.

Yeah, it was cook's daughter that Angela said that they'd be having there next, after Claudine and Eileen. One thing that saddened me though was that Eileen DID leave, even though Miss T offered her the chance to remain (presumably for free and, I hope, not just for the rest of that term but for as long as she intended to stay there). But Eileen refused on the grounds that 'I don't fit in there .. I know I don't.' That did make me feel a little sad for her.

[auscatherine]

Have checked and yes, it definitely does say barrow boy. So wouldn't this be just as likely to cause offence to the children of barrow boys? Also I must confess that I don't even know what a barrow boy is. Is it someone who sells something like fruit from a barrow in a market (ie, like Desmond in the Beatles song)?

[Anita Bensoussane]

Yes, I think that's what a "barrow boy" is. For me the phrase conjures up a Victorian scene, with children working in a street-market. "Boy" suggests someone young and therefore isn't so likely to put readers in mind of their parents even if they do run a fruit, vegetable or flower-stall at the market.

Anita