International Women's Day

[Courtenay]

You didn't see my previous post, Katharine? There IS an International Men's Day: http://www.internationalmensday.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Francis]

Zaidi wrote

Back in 1800s in Britain, women were thought to have no brains at all, there were some stupid scientist who said that women had brains like apes. Women then were highly underprivileged too but that was what you call culture vulture, and it has nothing to do with religion. Its always people and the culture who are responsible for these religious manipulations, to their own benefit.

Certainly women had no rights of property in the early 1800s. If you read 'Pride and Prejudice' by Jane Austen you can see how having all daughters made parents frantic to find them good matches before they would have to rely on distant cousins to look after them. Two hundred years of women's rights have improved the situation considerably but it has been a long struggle. Luckily Jane her sister and mother had five brothers to provide financial sanctuary when the father died.

[Katharine]

Thanks Francis, fortunately my friend made a comment along the lines that although my views were different to hers, she respected my right to a different opinion etc. etc., and I didn't think the other woman's comments were worthy of getting into a 'slanging match' with so ignored her.

Courtenay, I did see your post thanks, I just meant that it was something I'd thought about from time to time whenever I see a big fuss being made about women's events. There was an article in my local newspaper this week about a feminist group in Ipswich. I'm not quite sure what their aims are, but I did wonder what the reaction would be if an equivalent group for men was formed.

I do think that women can be guilty of double standards at times, ie they want equal jobs etc., but are quite happy for their men folk to fork out a huge sum of money in to buy a diamond (or similar) to adorn their finger if they get engaged, and then no doubt spend a silly sum of money on a fancy wedding dress that they'll only wear once, whereas the groom either has to hire a suit for a fraction of the price or he invests in a good quality one that he can then wear in the future. Not to mention the shoes, hairdos, flowers etc. etc. How many people have said that a wedding day is the 'brides' day?

OK, I know I'm generalising here, and I'm not criticising the women, as I had the ring, dress, shoes etc. etc. myself, I'm just trying to point out, that I sometimes feel that women expect to be equal to men, and then expect a man to give up his seat on the tube (or underground) just because they are female.

[Katharine]

Two hundred years of women's rights have improved the situation considerably but it has been a long struggle. Luckily Jane her sister and mother had five brothers to provide financial sanctuary when the father died.

I was reading something recently about a girl who was expected to conform to an arranged marriage (I think it was in the US), because of her cultural background. She didn't want to as it would have meant she'd have to drop out of school, and she wanted to train to be a doctor. Her parents understood her feelings, but couldn't/wouldn't back her up, as the marriage was being arranged by the girl's uncle. I don't remember what culture it was, but apparently, as the uncle was the eldest brother, the girl's father couldn't speak up for the girl, as it would have meant disgrace to the family to go against the man's wishes. Fortunately the authorities got involved and the marriage didn't go ahead, and she's now following the career she wants. However, my point is, that it's not just women who are oppressed in some parts of the world, it would seem that in some places there is a hierarchy which has to be followed, so the younger brothers and their families don't have equal rights/opportunities either.

Maybe instead of having International Men or Women's Days the world should just concentrate on fairness and justice for everyone?

[Moonraker]

Zaidi, I'm sorry, I don't really understand a lot of your comments to me, so I won't reply in case it causes further confusion.

No, didn't either, Katharine. But then I tend to speed-read long posts so I might have missed something! Anyway, enough of this, it's time I went back to the settee for a lie-down.

[zaidi]

I am really sorry, my post was pretty muddled up. It was in reply to Katherine's post, which said that men who work full time cannot be expected to do household or do babysitting. She also said that men cannot lookafter babies, because babies for the first six month are on breastfeed.

Women are naturally not as tall and as strong as men, they are the ones who get pregnant( which makes them even more vulnerable) despite which they are still expected do babysit their babies,and do household.
Katherine, I never said that women should not work at home or their husbands should do everything from babysitting to housework.
In today's world, when women can earn and do a full time job like men, I am sure its not much of a big deal if men work full time.
Because staying back at home, and sacrificing for your family is much ,much more tough than doing a job. And I've even seen women who work full time and still manage to do all the work on their own at their homes, so why cant men help out and share the work with their wives?


Men, need to value and do their best with their homes, which they hardly do. Its always women, who are seen looking after their babies, they nearly sacrifice all of their selves.
Coming to breastfeed , yes that is the main part of taking care of babies. However even despite that, they need great amount of care , time and patience. And in that time,there is huge amount of help needed, I am sure men should help then. And another thing, babies can be fed with the other milk for the times when mothers arenot around.
Not to mention , the diapers which I have hardly seen men change . I am sure , it wont kill them if they do.


Katherine, I would also like to ask how many hours of work,or the timings are, for what you call ' working full time'?

Nigel, you said that religion brings inequality. I answered it , saying that its never religion but people and the culture who use religious manipulations to gain benefit.( which makes it easy to use women for pleasure). Which is what you can call " Culture Vulture". Vulture is in context, to how culture kills .

[Katharine]

Katherine's post, which said that men who work full time cannot be expected to do household or do babysitting. She also said that men cannot lookafter babies, because babies for the first six month are on breastfeed.

I did not say that, I said that:
it would be pretty difficult for men to do the main part of looking after a baby That's totally different to saying they can't help out around the house or babysit.

Men, need to value and do their best with their homes, which they hardly do.

I wonder how many of them men reading this would be offended by such a comment? Personally I think it's a dreadful generalisation.

Not to mention , the diapers which I have hardly seen men change . I am sure , it wont kill them if they do

Most men I know regularly changed their baby's nappies. Certainly my husband did, my brother-in-law does, and even my father did which was less common when my siblings and I were babies.

Katherine, I would also like to ask how many hours of work,or the timings are, for what you call ' working full time'?

Before I had my children, I worked 35 hours which was classed as full-time, however I believe I was quite lucky, as most people I know work 37.5 - 40 hours a week full time. As for timings, well it depends on the work, office workers tend to work 9.00 - 5.30, Monday to Friday, but of course people in the retail and leisure industries have to work shift patterns, and so do people such as fire-fighters, nurses etc.

[zaidi]

Katherine, I just summed up I didnot mean to alter what you say, but yes maybe what I wrote had a difference with your real statement.
Not until 2 months, but I've taken care of my baby sister without my mother, and when she was 6 months and
up til now I can take care of her for more than 6to7 hours. So I think ,even without breastfeed the main part can be done.

You see Katherine, the advancement we have seen in gender equality over the past decades, doesnot mean the gender gap has been bridged up. Just like you say, your father used to change nappies which in those times was very rare, that means men back then were not very helping.
Maybe you have had good experiences, but the reality is pretty different.
Yes , I make a generalization but this is how it is, just a few men do not makeup the whole world. And this has been persistently the same for centuries,there has only been rapid change since the previous century, so the evils of gender inequality and male dominance will take time to eradicate.


Not per week, I mean in a day how many hours , is considered as working full time?and what timing are there.

[Katharine]

Zaidi, I'm finding it a bit difficult to understand what you mean, so apologies if I've misunderstood, but I think you are trying to point out that it doesn't need to be the mother that looks after a baby? If so, then apart from the breastfeeding aspect, then yes, a father could just as easily look after the baby while the mother works. Or both parents could work and the baby be cared for by a relative or paid child minder. However, the fact remains, that someone needs to be there for the baby, and if they are at home, then surely it's only fair that they do the larger part of the housework? If a man were to stay at home to be the main carer for a child, then I would think it only fair that they had a meal ready, did some washing, etc. for their wife when she returns home from work. If both parents are out all day working, then the fairest thing to do would be for them to share the housework when they get back. How each couple chooses to do that is up to them though.

In my grandparents' day, then my grandmother stayed at home with the children, and did all the traditional 'female' jobs such as cooking, washing, etc. That doesn't mean that my grandfather was dominating though, as apart from earning the money to pay for everything the family needed, he also grew virtually the fruit and vegetables the family ate, as well as keeping chickens so they never needed to buy eggs. He also did all the decorating, cleaned windows etc. etc. So I suppose it depends on what people class as equality, certainly my grandparents had very separate roles, but both contributed equally to family life, just in different ways. Both as important as each other.

As for working full time, well a normal working day really varies from place to place, where I work, a whole day is classed as 9 hours, however none of the staff work full time, whereas in my previous job, I only did 8 hours a day, but it was 5 days a week. I think some jobs might work 10 hour shifts. As I said in my earlier post, office hours are approximately 9.00 - 5.30, but as there are so many different jobs there's no hard and fast rule as to timings. Many supermarkets are open 24 hours, so people work different shifts, not working in one myself, I have no idea of start and finish times, or the number of hours worked.

[Darrell71]

Katherine, I just summed up I didnot mean to alter what you say, but yes maybe what I wrote had a difference with your real statement.

A big difference. The meaning was quite different Zainab.
Except for breastfeeding, it doesn't matter if it's a man or a women taking care of a baby. Whoever works for less hours or whoever finds it easier can do it, regardless of gender.

Nigel, you said that religion brings inequality. I answered it , saying that its never religion but people and the culture who use religious manipulations to gain benefit.( which makes it easy to use women for pleasure). Which is what you can call " Culture Vulture". Vulture is in context, to how culture kills .

That's true in some sense, because the religious texts are often interpreted wrongly and that gives rise to many inequalities, not just of gender. In Islam it is gender inequality, in Hinduism it is the jaat system, etc etc.
However, the policies of certain religions are often responsible for these inequalities.

Nigel ,Its again culture, of forcing women to wear veils and men to wear western clothes, and I would call that religious and cultural manipulations done by people to gain full advantage of women's weak stature in society.
My focus, was on developed countries which though provide equal status and opportunities to women,but they still struggle through huge amount of dominance sometimes naturally and many times because of certain conditions and problems.

Women's weak stature in society is both a cause and an effect of this 'religious manipulation'. Primarily an effect, because if you are forced to live in such a way that hinders your development, you are gonna have problems, and big ones at that. I've always wondered how women from conservative families who follow the religion which makes them wear black veils and lets men wear western clothes can stand it. I would never be able to bear such a thing.
All this has made me supremely glad that I'm an atheist, and that too of my own choice.
And btw, the problem is worse in developing countries. You can't focus just on the developed countries when the developing countries need that focus more.

[Wolfgang]

There was a newspaper recently which gave some quite interesting theories about why Western societies were able to dominate our planet for the last centuries. One argument was the ability to critisize yourself. Emancipating from religious beliefs (The Earth is flat! If you tell otherwise you'll face inquisition!) allowed technological advances. The ability to critisize leaders allows corrections in general courses. The ability to self-critisize means also admitting you might be wrong and gives room to the consideration of other people's opinions, also the ones you consider yourself superior. The lack of this ability simply means that you're always right, even if you're wrong, and therefore superior. In a way this concept shows in "Second form in St Clare's" when Gladys persuades Mirabel to stay instead of leavling as she intended to do.
By allowing women to have their opinions men started to give up their privilege to dominate them, but it's still a process in work, even in the western societies.

[Moonraker]

Women are naturally not as tall and as strong as men

Good to see old-fashioned sexism is still alive and well.

Before we criticise Zainab too much, we must remember that she lives in a different land to England, and therefore might have opinions based on her experience. I can say that I change plenty of nappies when our boys were babies, and my son has changed plenty of his children's nappies, too. Of course, it might seem to be more of a woman's role in Pakistan.

[pete9012S]

I don't think men should even be allowed to post on this thread.

[Machupicchu14]

Why?

[zaidi]

Nigel, can you stop discriminating me because I am from Pakistan , please! Why does my country need a reference to everything. I really dont appreciate sympathies,on the basis of being from a different land.
So isnt it true, that men are way taller and stronger than women, is this a myth?

Katherine and you dont make up the whole of England, or neither do all the men that Katherine knows or you do, represent the whole male population that exists in England.

I didnot make some conservative comment, all I talked off is about women empowerment and the things they face, and how many( not all) men have a nature to classify certain tasks being feminine and how vulnerable women are at certain stages. Why are you both trying to make me feel, like I said something thats completely out of question.

I thought the same that the western parts of the world, have bridged up the gap of gender inequality but sadly the fact is not as it appears to be. I have had great amount of study, research and interaction based on women empowerment, and domestic violence exists too. The primitive thinking hasnt died yet, and there quite alot of examples to it.
Both my parents and their families are educated, and being from an educated background. Gender inequality has been minimum in my family, I dont face it inside the family or in school. But in certain places I do,
however I tried to talk about general areas where women allover the world face dominance and inequality.

Katherine, you might seem to think that you are very neutral. But your point of views, classify male chauvinism and a serious threat to women empowerment, you love to stay back at home rather than working out but most women everywhere dont love it, they make sacrifices.
Helping your wife, on daily basis is what counts, not occasional workouts like changing the nappy sometimes or helping a little bit with the house.
Its a daily struggle that women at home face, and sometimes with their jobs, they face both work and home pressure. Most Men hardly realize, that what women do, is one hell of something, there just so absorbed with their worklife that they hardly seem to acknowledge how their wives support them in all ways.

Please try to understand that many women are still struggling, views that some people here exhibit against women empowerment, can be easily used by male chauvinists, to manipulate their position and thinking.