English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

[Anita Bensoussane]

This was in a communication from English Heritage:

"Learn about the conservation works taking place to protect it from our team of experts."

I really hope that it is poorly worded, and not that the site in question needs protecting from the experts!

Good one!

[Courtenay]

This was in a communication from English Heritage:

"Learn about the conservation works taking place to protect it from our team of experts."

I really hope that it is poorly worded, and not that the site in question needs protecting from the experts!

Guess you never know with some of these "experts"...

[Courtenay]

Here's another fine example of ambiguous wording in a BBC headline:

Homeless tents destroyed during Met Police operation

Those poor tents... how did they become homeless in the first place? Did they really deserve to be destroyed, rather than taken to a homeless tents' shelter? Aren't there any tent charities that might have been able to help them out of their predicament??

(Now I'm having visions of a shabby tent sitting on a street corner selling The Big Issue, but my sanity level does tend to drop sharply at this time of night )

[MJE]

     I expect the writer really meant: "Learn from our team of experts about the conservation works taking place to protect it".

Regards, Michael.

[MJE]

     I think I can hardly trawl through all 144 pages of this thread to see if this has already been discussed (perhaps to death), but I am prompted to raise the issue of the serial comma - that is, when a list of usually nouns (but it can be verbs, adjectives, or adverbs) occurs, with most of them separated by commas, the last couple will usually be separated by a conjunction such as "and" or "or", possibly with a comma immediately preceding the conjunction. The serial comma is that one immediately preceding the conjunction.
     For example, in a simple list such as "blue, red, and yellow", the last comma is the serial comma - without this, the list reads "blue, red and yellow". It is sometimes informally known in Britain as the Oxford comma, and in the U.S. as the Harvard comma - I presume because the style guides of those universities favour retaining the serial comma as the norm. (I don't know if there is an Australian name for it - I think the serial comma is extinct here, although I steadfastly continue using it.)
     Most sources when discussing the serial comma say that it is optional, but one should decide whether to use it or not, then remain consistent - the only exceptions being that where your normal practice would cause confusion about the list items, you should depart from your usual stance if it will clarify the list. (Sometimes it is necessary to change the order of the items, especially if some of the list items themselves include a comma or conjunction.)
     Despite sources giving lip service to the serial comma being optional, as if either stance is about equally common, I get the impression that the serial comma is alive and well in the U.S., and just about extinct in the U.K., and in Australia also (regrettably, in my opinion).
     I wonder whether there are any authoritative sources that dictate that one should not use the serial comma in the U.K. and Australia, or whether it's just a fashion that people seem to have adopted, just from seeing those around them doing it, and so following suit.

     Does anyone have any thoughts or knowledge about this?
     Has anyone ever deliberately changed their practice on the serial comma (either adopting or abandoning it) as a result of what others around them do? Is there any merit in changing solely because of what you see others doing?
     Has anyone ever, despite seeing what others around them do, deliberately not followed suit, and why?

Regards, Michael.

[Fiona1986]

I was taught that there was no comma needed where the 'and' went at the end of a list, so unless it's going to cause terrible confusion I don't use it.

[Boatbuilder]

The same here, Fiona.

[Barnard]

I agree.

[MJE]

     To me, without the comma, it makes the last two items feel more strongly connected to each other than with the other preceding adjacent pairs.
     That's probably why I favour the serial comma, although I don't quite remember now when or why I initially adopted it.

Regards, Michael.

[Anita Bensoussane]

Like Fiona and others, I was taught at school that no comma was needed before 'and' at the end of a list. It was only later on that I learnt about the Oxford comma, which I use occasionally if it serves to clarify things.

[Daisy]

I was taught the same as Fiona, that it was not necessary to use both a comma and "and" at the end of a list.

[Anita Bensoussane]

By coincidence, last night I finished reading The Good Thieves by Katherine Rundell (an excellent children's adventure story set in 1920s Manhattan). There's an acknowledgements page at the end of the book and the author thanks her big brother "for pointing out my near-clinical addiction to the Oxford comma". While reading the story I hadn't noticed how Katharine Rundell had used commas in lists, but I looked back through the book and found two instances of Oxford commas (there may well be more):

Swiftly she dressed in her skirt, jersey, scarf, and boots, coaxing the left one over her foot, which still throbbed from the night before.

Ten minutes later, all four children were sitting on Vita's bed, and Silk was eating a sandwich made of everything sweet Vita could find - butter, peanut butter, honey, chocolate shavings, and a sliced banana.

[Courtenay]

The basic thing I always notice about the Oxford comma is that Americans ALWAYS use it — I think it must be drummed into them at school — and English speakers (or writers) from other countries only use it when it's necessary for clarification. It's definitely necessary in a sentence like this:

I'd like to thank my parents, Oprah Winfrey, and God.

versus...

I'd like to thank my parents, Oprah Winfrey and God.

Because of the occasional possible ambiguities like that, some people — again, I only ever see this from Americans for some reason — argue that the Oxford comma should always be used in every list of items, but to me, that's overdoing it. Unless it really IS needed for clarity, I usually don't bother with it.

[Bertie]

I don't have a strong view on the Oxford Comma, but all this talk of it has inevitably led to one of my many listens to the Vampire Weekend song of the same name.

[Moonraker]

Sorry, Nigel, but you're applying strict logic to English grammar. I don't think that can reasonably be done.
Besides which, my own personal preferences is to apostrophise number plurals such as 1960's and there is no authority on earth that can stop me!!!

You carry on, old friend! It's a bit like my grandson who insists on saying "could of" instead of "could have". He insists he is right, that the English language evolves, and this is part of the process!

I still enjoy Tony Blackburn's Sounds of the Sixties, with or without apostrophes!