Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by pete9012S »

You are quite right as usual Rob!
Mr. Lenoir laughed again. His cold blue eyes looked intently at all the children. 'By the way, Pierre,' he said suddenly, 'I forbid you to wander about the catacombs in this hill, as I have forbidden you before, and I also forbid you to do any of your dare-devil climbing, nor will I have you acting about on the city wall, now that you have others here.
'What are catacombs?' asked Anne, with a vague picture of cats and combs in her head.
'Winding, secret tunnels in the hill,' said Sooty. 'Nobody knows them all. You can get lost in them easily, and never get out again. Lots of people have.'
'Why are there so many secret ways and things here?' wondered George.
'Easy!' said Julian. 'It was a haunt of smugglers, and there must have been many a time when they had to hide not only their goods, but themselves! And, according to old Sooty, there still is a smuggler here!
Sooty swung his torch round, and the children saw various passages leading off here and there.
'Where do they all lead to?' asked Julian, in amazement.
'Well, I told you this hill was full of tunnels,' said Sooty. 'This pit is down in the hill and these tunnels lead into the catacombs. There are miles and miles of them. No one explores them now, because so many people have been lost in them and never heard of again. There used to be an old map of them, but it's lost.'
'It's weird!' said Anne, and shivered. 'I wouldn't like to be down here alone.'
" A kind heart always brings its own reward," said Mrs. Lee.
- The Christmas Tree Aeroplane -

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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by MJE »

Courtenay wrote:Hmmm, I've never read Billycock Hill, so it couldn't have been that one. I definitely remember the "cats and combs" line from somewhere, though, and I'm sure it was Enid Blyton...
     I envy you, still having Famous Five books (or books from another favourite series) you still haven't read. I'd be wanting to go out and get them - although I'd need to find early editions while the covers and illustrations were still decent and the text more or less intact.
     I recall that, after I ran out of Famous Five stories, I actually used to keep dreaming of new Famous Five stories that somehow came to light (or sometimes I seemed to be actually in these new adventures). I still (vaguely) have mental images of scenes from a couple of these.
     I wonder how many people still have individual books they haven't read from a series they have in general been interested in for a long time.

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by MJE »

Rob Houghton wrote:lol! :D There are loads of tunnels in Caravan...
     In fact, it has one of the best and longest underground climaxes in the whole Famous Five, and perhaps one of the best and longest climaxes out of the whole series.

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by Courtenay »

pete9012S wrote:
'What are catacombs?' asked Anne, with a vague picture of cats and combs in her head.
That's it! :D Well done, Rob and Pete. Thanks for clearing up that little mystery for me.
MJE wrote: I envy you, still having Famous Five books (or books from another favourite series) you still haven't read.
Actually, the only major Blyton series I've ever read the whole of (other than shorter series like Galliano's Circus where there are only three books or so) is the Adventure series! I've got all the Find-Outers books now but still have several I haven't read (not that I don't want to, I've just had more important things to do and haven't made time); I've never been able to muster any further interest in the Barney series after the first book, which I've read twice, turned out to be a major disappointment both times; and I've read one Secret Seven and never felt particularly interested in reading the rest. The Famous Five I enjoyed when I was little and have read about eight of them, but they were never my favourites and I again don't feel any great desire to read the rest of the series. Not least because, like Sunskriti in her recent post, I find George too sulky and selfish, Julian too stuck up, and Anne too wimpy!!

All this probably means I'm not a "real" Blyton fan, I know — and I can already hear the cries of "You don't know what you're missing out on!" — but there it is...
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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by Daisy »

I think it makes a difference to how you view a series if you haven't read at least one or two of the books as a child. I'm not sure how I should take to some of the children of I hadn't been hooked when still very young!
All the major series were written as I was growing up, meaning the later books were unknown to me for many years - until I realized there were more and added them to my by now well worn copies! As I had an affection and I suppose a child's perception of the characters, they still came over as likeable and I didn't really change my mind about any of them.
I would recommend Rilloby Fair, Courtenay. It was the first of the Barney books I read and it really is a jolly good story. Rockingdown was a much later addition to my library and served as a useful background as to how the children met, etc.
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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by MJE »

Courtenay wrote:I've never been able to muster any further interest in the Barney series after the first book, which I've read twice, turned out to be a major disappointment both times;
     What problem did you have with the first book, Courtenay? Thinking it over, no serious problems with it seem to come to my mind.
Courtenay wrote:and I've read one Secret Seven and never felt particularly interested in reading the rest.
     I think it's possible I might feel similarly if I were to read these books for the first time now. But it so happens that I read these almost as soon as I read the Famous Five, so they have that special magic attached to them that I think comes from reading them in childhood and having them associated with memories of your life then and tying in with the rich imaginative world children probably live in (and I know I did). So, as a result, I can read them with enjoyment now, even though I think they are on the whole less exciting than the Famous Five, or in fact most of the other series, and the characters a bit less distinct and a bit less attractive. (I often think Peter is not all that attractive with his petty attachment to rules and regulations, and think he might have grown up to be a government bureaucrat - very efficient, but perhaps not all that imaginative in dealing with situations that the rules don't seem to cover.)
Courtenay wrote:Not least because, like Sunskriti in her recent post, I find George too sulky and selfish, Julian too stuck up, and Anne too wimpy!!
     Yes, when it's put like Sunskriti put it, the point can't be denied about George at least; but I think she has some pretty good qualities, too. Not sure I see Julian as stuck-up, though - but he does have the attitude of "protecting" the girls which was probably pretty standard at the time the books were written. I would have made the boys and girls more equal myself, if I had written them and done so today.

     So what series are your favourites, Courtenay?

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by Courtenay »

Daisy wrote:I think it makes a difference to how you view a series if you haven't read at least one or two of the books as a child. I'm not sure how I should take to some of the children of I hadn't been hooked when still very young!
MJE wrote: I think it's possible I might feel similarly if I were to read these books for the first time now. But it so happens that I read these almost as soon as I read the Famous Five, so they have that special magic attached to them that I think comes from reading them in childhood and having them associated with memories of your life then and tying in with the rich imaginative world children probably live in (and I know I did).


All the Famous Five books and the one Secret Seven I've read were when I was still under 12 years old, and while I liked them, I was never absolutely hooked — whereas I didn't read any of the Adventure series until I was an adult and couldn't stop raving with excitement from the first one onwards! :lol: So I'm never too sure about the theory that the books you read as a child are always the ones you love most and the ones you read as an adult never have quite the same magic...
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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by Courtenay »

MJE wrote:
Courtenay wrote:I've never been able to muster any further interest in the Barney series after the first book, which I've read twice, turned out to be a major disappointment both times;
     What problem did you have with the first book, Courtenay? Thinking it over, no serious problems with it seem to come to my mind.
Oh, it starts out really promisingly, with the introduction of the characters — especially Barney and Miranda — and the mysterious, lonely, creepy, abandoned old manor with the sad story behind it and the children's rooms still furnished and all full of dust and cobwebs and so on... it looks like it's setting up to be a hugely exciting mystery. But then as the adventure unfolds, it turns out that the actual mystery has nothing to do with the house itself and the whole thing gets a bit improbable with the hidden tunnels and the underground river with the goods being sent along it and so on. I also found it disappointing how it's mainly just Barney, held captive underground, who gets involved in the most exciting and dangerous part of the mystery and the others are relegated to the fringes till almost the end. It's a book that could have been brilliant, but it just feels as if Enid didn't handle the plot as skilfully in this one as she usually does.
MJE wrote: So what series are your favourites, Courtenay?
The Adventure series, as I've said. Also the Find-Outers, despite my still not having read all of them! For the shorter series, definitely Galliano's Circus.
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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

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Courtenay wrote:All the Famous Five books and the one Secret Seven I've read were when I was still under 12 years old, and while I liked them, I was never absolutely hooked — whereas I didn't read any of the Adventure series until I was an adult and couldn't stop raving with excitement from the first one onwards! :lol: So I'm never too sure about the theory that the books you read as a child are always the ones you love most and the ones you read as an adult never have quite the same magic...
     Well, that's interesting. While one can't prove such things, I have tended to believe the theory - simply because it seems to be true for myself, and at least some others seem to find it so, and it does sound reasonable, and I think I can come up with reasons why it might be true.
     If I had left at least one or two books of a few series unread until now, I could probably test it by reading those unread books now and seeing what I thought.
     In a manner of speaking that did happen, well perhaps 15 years ago (but still recently enough to count as recent exposure), because the two collections "Five Have a Puzzling Time and Other Stories" and "The Secret Seven Short Story Collection" came out - and I also read two Find-Outers short stories in a collection I got, Naughtiest Girl and Adventurous Four short stories - and I had never encountered any of these works before, although I suppose they did see publication much earlier on. Well, it was interesting, and these were enjoyable enough; but I can't say any of these stories had the special magic, which would seem to support the theory.
     But they may not support it after all, because they are all short works - 10, 20 pages or similar, perhaps 40 in the case of the Adventurous Four story. The longest was the title story in "Five Have a Puzzling Time", and that was a half-novel, perhaps - 80 or 90 pages, maybe - and it may be argued that shorter works will lack as rich a sense of atmosphere due to having fewer words in which to develop such things. However, I do seem to recall the story itself was a bit tamer than I would normally expect in a Famous Five story.
     So perhaps the matter is still unresolved; but I do tend to believe it does apply to myself, at least.

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by Rob Houghton »

Regards the theory about books we read as a child, I think I'm about 50/50. Many of the books I read as a child are still my favourites - Holiday House, Mystery of the Missing Necklace, Five Go To Mystery moor, Secret Seven Adventure, Family at Red Roofs, The Rilloby Fair Mystery - to name just a few...but there are many books I first read as an adult that I now consider favourites, such as The Circus of Adventure, The Sea of Adventure, The Rubadub Mystery, Five Go On A Hike Together, Five Go Off In A Caravan, The Mystery of The Strange Messages.

As a child I absolutely hated 'Mountain of Adventure' and also 'Island of Adventure' to such an extent that I never read the other books in the series until I was in my 30's. Also as a child I read only Five Go To Mystery Moor and Five Go To Smuggler's Top - and didn't read any more Fives books until I was about 25. I like most of the Fives books now, but as a child I considered them to be 'too popular' to bother with!!

:lol:
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by MJE »

Courtenay wrote:Oh, it starts out really promisingly, with the introduction of the characters — especially Barney and Miranda — and the mysterious, lonely, creepy, abandoned old manor with the sad story behind it and the children's rooms still furnished and all full of dust and cobwebs and so on... it looks like it's setting up to be a hugely exciting mystery. But then as the adventure unfolds, it turns out that the actual mystery has nothing to do with the house itself and the whole thing gets a bit improbable with the hidden tunnels and the underground river with the goods being sent along it and so on. I also found it disappointing how it's mainly just Barney, held captive underground, who gets involved in the most exciting and dangerous part of the mystery and the others are relegated to the fringes till almost the end. It's a book that could have been brilliant, but it just feels as if Enid didn't handle the plot as skilfully in this one as she usually does.
     Yes, I suppose I see what you mean now you point it out - but those things didn't seem to bother me. I know from previous discussions that the abandoned children's rooms and the story behind them resonated with many - but it's possible that it didn't so much with me, so that setting being left behind as the story moved on didn't seem to bother me so much.
     I guess you don't turn to Enid Blyton adventure stories, though, if improbable events bother you.
     The point that it's largely about Barney, too, could be a problem - I suppose a bit like "The Circus of Adventure" is largely about Jack. I guess I just accepted it, because the stories were still interesting and exciting. If I were writing a story where that was happening, though, I think it would cause me to pause and consider whether it should and could be changed. But if it really didn't want to change, I would probably decide in the end to go along with it and resolve to redress the balance in the next story.
Courtenay wrote:
MJE wrote: So what series are your favourites, Courtenay?
The Adventure series, as I've said. Also the Find-Outers, despite my still not having read all of them! For the shorter series, definitely Galliano's Circus.
     Okay - sorry - I did read your reference to having read all of the Adventure series, but it didn't say it was a favourite series - although that should have been a reasonable assumption, and I should have picked that up from a comment you made elsewhere.
     Now the Mr. Galliano's Circus series is one I have not read - so perhaps I could use that to test my theory about the magic of childhood - although it may not fully work because, even as a child, the animal-type stories were not my favourites, and I'm not even sure if I read any as a child. But I did more recently read both the short novels in "Dog Stories" (well maybe 10-15 years ago) and enjoyed them.
     I do have the paperbacks of the series, which I picked up one by one maybe 20 years ago, and my reason for not having read them, even now, is rather odd.
     You see, for many years, I believed the series had four books in it. Without having seen all the books, I believed one particular book belonged to the series, and I think that was "Come to the Circus" (the 1944 one about Mr. Carl Crack's Circus - there are two books of this title). And, believing I had only three out of the four books, I was reluctant to even start on a series I thought I might not be able to complete after getting involved in it.
     The books got stored in boxes, and I later found out that there were only 3 Galliano books, and that I therefore did have the complete series - but life went on, and I never got around to doing anything about it. Next time I see the books, I will pull them out and read them in correct order.
     If you like the Mr. Galliano's Circus series, Courtenay, are you aware that there is a short story also in the series? I have read that in the past, it being the only part of that series I have read. It's called "A Circus Adventure", and can be found in "Enid Blyton's Omnibus!", a collection I found quite a while ago, but well into adulthood - also in a more recent collection, "The Secret of Skytop Hill and Other Stories" - although I bet the illustrations in that won't be nearly so good, if there are any at all (I don't recall).

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by Rob Houghton »

I'm also not really keen on animal stories...or rather, animals IN stories - such as Kiki, or Loony or even Timmy and Miranda. I put up with them! But the Galliano series is really worth reading, and doesn't actually feature animals all that greatly - the best thing about the Galliano series is the great feeling of community that Enid creates - where the circus world is cut off from the outside world, and where they have their own rules and ideas and sense of belonging. Sometimes people join the circus who upset this fine balance, and then trouble begins. I love how the circus folk always look out for one another, support each other, and act like one big family most of the time.

Also, as Courtenay has said previously in other posts, the character of Lotta is one of the strongest female leads in any Blyton book - better in many ways than George, because she never feels the need to prove herself as being 'as good as a boy' but just gets on with things. She is very much the heroine of each book.
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by Daisy »

I wonder if our views can depend on our ages! To me Julian was never overbearing in an objectionable way - he was the typical responsible big brother of that generation - the one when the books were written which was when I was a child. Most of the negative characteristics of any Blyton characters have been pointed out by people much younger than me... who have grown up with the idea of equality of the sexes being more firmly entrenched. I always liked and enjoyed the Adventure series but it has been pointed out that at times the children were rather snobbish - their treatment of Lucian being a case in point. While I find it interesting to analyse and dissect the books I can still put that to one side when reading them - thank goodness!
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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by Rob Houghton »

I think you have a point there, Daisy, and its one I strongly agree with. As a child, even in the 1970's, I never found Julian overbearing (though I only read two Famous Fives) - he seemed just as an older brother should be. I always found Fatty extremely clever, and admirable. I found Snubby funny and likeable and not annoying in the least. In Mystery Moor, I loved Henry/Henrietta and thought it was a great 'innovation' of Enid's to have a character just like George.

I never found characters snobbish or sexist - in fact always sided with them - and to me it just seemed quite right that brothers would protect their sisters from danger, especially as the sisters were usually younger. It was obvious to me that girls wouldn't go out on night adventures, even though I had a friend who was a girl, who lived next door to me who was a tom-boy and would have coped brilliantly in any scary adventure!

I also never found it obnoxious when leading characters treated other characters badly...I always went along the path that I think Enid intended her readers to go - I was sympathetic to the main characters and would have found Lucian obnoxious if I'd read that book as a child, just as I found Susie obnoxious (now i really like her!) and much as I also found Eunice obnoxious in 'Missing Man' or Curious Connie in the Faraway Tree.

I think you make a good point about younger people usually being the ones to point out the bad characteristics of certain characters. I was always 100% behind the main characters and generally agreed with their attitudes towards other characters, never seeing them as snobbish or hierarchical in the slightest! Its only more recently I've been encouraged to see things from a modern-day point of view sometimes!

I think I've said before that I believe children are usually quick to judge (particularly when I was a child anyway) and anyone who is worse off than them, or deemed stupid, or acts differently or is nosy or tiresome or too young or too girly or wears the wrong clothes or who seems timid etc, is usually marked out as a figure of fun, especially when there is an 'Alpha' group of children, as in most of Enid's books . Its not how I prefer things, but its how things were, when I was a child. I think its only more recently that attitudes have changed(really for the better!) and we have begun to think inclusively. As a child I can remember not wanting other kids in our group of friends because they were 'silly' or 'too young' or 'annoying' - so Enid had it spot-on.
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Unusual words and phrases in Blyton - dictionary needed?

Post by Bertie »

Apologies if there's a thread for this somewhere, but I certainly don't remember seeing one...

No worries. Now merged.


I was reading The Mystery of the Pantomime Cat again recently, and I'm always struck by Goon's use of the word pestiferous, which I don't remember any other Blyton characters using in any of the other books. Similarly, Goon's use of verbose in Holly Lane, although that time Enid does highlight the unusualness of the word by writing "Goon wondered what 'verbose' meant - something rude, he'd be bound!" :lol:

Has anyone else any unusual words / phrases that stand out - maybe because Enid only uses them once or so in her books?
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