Which character's ears would you most like to box?

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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by MJE »

     Well, Anita, clearly my memory of all this is much rustier than yours, although I would point out that much - but not all - of what you cite happened after the fire, so it may be attributable largely to that: no-one would be at their best so soon after such a traumatic event, while it is all so fresh and raw in their mind and emotions.
     However, things like her vanity, selfishness, and so on, I suppose are likely to be life-long characteristics.
     I don't know, though - this doesn't really change my view of things, somehow. There is a real sense in which I believe we have rather less control over our own personalities than we are often told, and that we are more slaves of our upbringing and genes than we like to believe. I cringed on reading Rose's behaviour in the books - but didn't find her so brazenly *obnoxious* as I found people like Angela Favorleigh or Junior Henning - who had no (disclosed) reason or justification for behaving the way they did. My gut reaction to Rose was, "How pathetic, how tragic"; my gut reaction to Junior was "Obnoxious little spoilt brat who needs a good spanking!", and to Angela "Repulsive, spiteful snob".

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by MJE »

Katharine wrote:What am I saying - she's only a character in a book :roll: :wink:
     I think it's quite reasonable to discuss things like this about characters in a book as if they were real people. After all, one of the things about novels is that they are supposed (in some respects) to be like life, to reflect it in some ways (perhaps an idealized way). And one of the things that makes a novel interesting is that the characters in it are like real-life characters, and thus come across as convincing.

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by Katharine »

MJE wrote:
Katharine wrote:What am I saying - she's only a character in a book :roll: :wink:
I think it's quite reasonable to discuss things like this about characters in a book as if they were real people. After all, one of the things about novels is that they are supposed (in some respects) to be like life, to reflect it in some ways (perhaps an idealized way). And one of the things that makes a novel interesting is that the characters in it are like real-life characters, and thus come across as convincing.

Regards, Michael.
I think it's a tribute to Enid Blyton's writing that we are discussing her characters as though they were real people. Whether we sympathise with a character or not, they must be believeable to evoke such feelings.

I'm just wondering if Rose was a naturally self-centred person or a victim of a spoilt upbringing. I can't help wondering what her husband saw in her if he was such a down to earth person?
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

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Katharine wrote:I think it's a tribute to Enid Blyton's writing that we are discussing her characters as though they were real people. Whether we sympathise with a character or not, they must be believeable to evoke such feelings.
     Especially in the school and family stories. Fond as I am of the mystery and adventure stories, I have to admit that the characterization in those is not so deep or subtle or multi-faceted - although the characters do still seem to be recognizable. I don't quite know why, though: it could be due to myself more than Blyton, because these are the books I first read as a child, and maybe that's when I built up my picture of them as characters, at a time when I maybe had more imagination and everything was more vivid.
Katharine wrote:I'm just wondering if Rose was a naturally self-centred person or a victim of a spoilt upbringing.
     I guess there are limits to how far we can discuss Blyton's characters as if they were real people - and perhaps this is where we bump into one of them. We simply don't know which of those it is - unless someone can read more into it than I can.
     But this raises a question for myself, having done a few chapters of what I hope will be an adventure novel, although also having run into a road-bump for now. Should I try to aim for a level of characterization that is deeper than what Blyton did in her own adventure stories, and more like the school or family stories? - or should I be content with the kind she used in her own adventure stories? Of course I don't have to do what she did, and this is not an attempt to imitate Blyton's style, but just to write adventure stories in my own style but somehow in the *spirit* of Blyton.
     And maybe there are good reasons she had less characterization in her own adventure stories which I shouldn't ignore. That is, if I can find out what they are: maybe it's just that too-deep characterization takes up chapter space and might cause the pace of the adventure to slow down too much and/or simplify too much and/or bloat the novel to too many hundreds of pages.
     I don't know - it's something I've been thinking about.
Katharine wrote:I can't help wondering what her husband saw in her if he was such a down to earth person?
     People do it all the time: marry someone, then realize (or find out) years later it wasn't the right person. That's why the divorce rate is what it is in many countries.

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

MJE wrote:     ...I would point out that much - but not all - of what you cite happened after the fire, so it may be attributable largely to that: no-one would be at their best so soon after such a traumatic event, while it is all so fresh and raw in their mind and emotions.
That's true, but I agree with John (Lucky Star) and several others who have said Rose's lack of willingness even to try is what sets her apart. If she'd tried she might well still have coped badly at first, and needed a lot of support, but people would have seen that she was doing the best she could and helped her. More importantly, she would have been with her family and been involved in making plans for the future right from the beginning. Then perhaps she wouldn't have felt so out of things and resented the new situation so much.
MJE wrote:...towards the end of the second book, she did try - and apparently succeeded, too. Granted that there is some debate over whether it came too easily to her, or whether the way it happened is very realistic or not - but does this count for anything in Rose's favour?
I feel that Enid Blyton intends us to view Rose's sudden change of heart as genuine - so yes, I'd say that at that point she redeems herself. We're left with the impression that she is going to try her hardest from now on, and that the rest of the family are going to continue to work hard too and do all they can to make a success of life together at Holly Farm.
MJE wrote:But this raises a question for myself, having done a few chapters of what I hope will be an adventure novel, although also having run into a road-bump for now. Should I try to aim for a level of characterization that is deeper than what Blyton did in her own adventure stories, and more like the school or family stories? - or should I be content with the kind she used in her own adventure stories. ...maybe there are good reasons she had less characterization in her own adventure stories which I shouldn't ignore. That is, if I can find out what they are: maybe it's just that too-deep characterization takes up chapter space and might cause the pace of the adventure to slow down too much and/or simplify too much and/or bloat the novel to too many hundreds of pages.
Personally I'd be interested to read an adventure novel with deeper characterisation, though I suppose characters like the Famous Five need a certain amount of "bounce-back-ability" in order to be able to tackle one adventure after another with undented courage and confidence. In real life, the trauma of just one or two such experiences could have a long-term effect on people's well-being but the Five always seem to emerge unscathed and just the same as ever.
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by 70s-child »

black labrador wrote: Snubby - uttlerly obnoxious - so different to Roger, Diana and Barney.
That's interesting. Why do you find Snubby obnoxious? I feel sorry for him, and I always thought that it was the others, especially his cousins, who are rather mean to him. Somewhere at the beginning of the first book he says something like "I am not used to such kind attentions from you cousins" (or words to that effect). A bit tragic.
MJE wrote:
Katharine wrote:I can't help wondering what her husband saw in her if he was such a down to earth person?
People do it all the time: marry someone, then realize (or find out) years later it wasn't the right person. That's why the divorce rate is what it is in many countries.
But parents in Blytondom never seem to divorce. I have wondered about the same thing with a few other of Blyton parents. Gwendoline's parents and Angela Favorleigh's parents for instance. What exactly keeps them together I wonder. :?
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

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70s-child wrote:But parents in Blytondom never seem to divorce.

*SPOILER WARNING* for the Barney Mysteries, The Six Bad Boys and the Six Cousins books.



I suppose the closest Enid Blyton came to that was with Barney's parents, who split up while Tessie was pregnant with Barney. Whether Barnabas and Tessie ever got divorced officially is unknown. Then there are the Berkeley parents in The Six Bad Boys, who split up temporarily but get back together. Rose also threatens to leave David in Six Cousins Again, though she changes her mind. I can't think of any examples of an actual divorce.
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by mynameisdumbnuts »

Anita Bensoussane wrote:
70s-child wrote:But parents in Blytondom never seem to divorce.

*SPOILER WARNING* for the Barney Mysteries, The Six Bad Boys and the Six Cousins books.



I suppose the closest Enid Blyton came to that was with Barney's parents, who split up while Tessie was pregnant with Barney. Whether Barnabas and Tessie ever got divorced officially is unknown. Then there are the Berkeley parents in The Six Bad Boys, who split up temporarily but get back together. Rose also threatens to leave David in Six Cousins Again, though she changes her mind. I can't think of any examples of an actual divorce.
There's one more: Carlotta Brown's mother in the St. Clare's series ran away from her dad to go back to the circus.
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by mynameisdumbnuts »

MJE wrote:*Why* can't Susie be admitted to the Secret Seven? Oh, because there can only be seven in the Secret *Seven*, silly! (I think Peter said once). A pretty weak reason. Why not allow another, and let them be the Exciting Eight? Yet two more, and they could be the Terrific Ten - and so on. (I can't think of an alliterative title for nine, but I'm sure they could come up with one if they ended up with nine wanting to be members.)
     There is a slightly unpleasant exclusiveness to the Seven, where others, like Susie, just aren't good enough to join - but this exclusiveness is, after all, true to human nature. But they might be slightly more likable group if they were more inclusive, more willing to admit members outside their tight, exclusive little circle.
Well, the flip side to that is ... why should the Seven admit Susie? None of them likes her enough to want to give her a chance (in fairness to Peter, it's not just him who feels this way) and they are happy with the way things are. I think those are legitimate reasons to exclude Susie and everyone else. I suppose it would be nice if the Seven opened the fold to others; but I don't think it's mean not to. And I can see why there's a rule against Susie. She persecutes the Seven. She's really not very nice to them. I wouldn't have admit someone like that to my inner circle as a child.
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by MJE »

mynameisdumbnuts wrote:Well, the flip side to that is ... why should the Seven admit Susie? None of them likes her enough to want to give her a chance (in fairness to Peter, it's not just him who feels this way) and they are happy with the way things are. I think those are legitimate reasons to exclude Susie and everyone else. I suppose it would be nice if the Seven opened the fold to others; but I don't think it's mean not to. And I can see why there's a rule against Susie. She persecutes the Seven. She's really not very nice to them. I wouldn't have admit someone like that to my inner circle as a child.
     Well, I guess so. But I just can't help having the feeling that Susie is nasty to the Seven because they are nasty to her, and they are nasty to her because she's nasty to them, and so on and on in never-ending circles. If only that vicious circle had never begun years back probably (and very likely over something quite trivial), they could have all been friends and worked together.
     But unfortunately life isn't like that shining vision of universal brotherhood. So we can debate all we like about Susie vs. the Secret Seven - but the whole situation is certainly quite life-like, at the least.
     I have to say, though, that Susie is someone I think it would be more comfortable to have on my side than opposed to me!

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by Moonraker »

I can see little mystery in the continuing Susie saga. At Peter's age, my circle of friends had sisters, and we would have nothing to do with them! As for divorce, it didn't seem to happen in post-war Britain. Out of my year at school, only one boy didn't have two married (to each other) parents, and his father had died.
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by 70s-child »

Anita Bensoussane wrote: I suppose the closest Enid Blyton came to that was with Barney's parents, who split up while Tessie was pregnant with Barney. Whether Barnabas and Tessie ever got divorced officially is unknown.
mynameisdumbnuts wrote: There's one more: Carlotta Brown's mother in the St. Clare's series ran away from her dad to go back to the circus.
I had forgotten about both of those! It is interesting though that in the two cases where she mentions an actual separation, one of the parent's has an circus background. It feels as if an exotic background was necessary to make the separation less .. noticeable/controversial/unusual?
Moonraker wrote: As for divorce, it didn't seem to happen in post-war Britain. Out of my year at school, only one boy didn't have two married (to each other) parents, and his father had died.
You statement got to me look up the official stats on this for the UK. :) My understanding had always been that divorce and remarriage rates in both Western Europe and North America have been steadily increasing since the post-war years. This paper (http://www.leeds.ac.uk/cava/papers/wsp2.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) from the University of Leeds website indicates that divorce wasn't uncommon in post-war Britain. The first paragraph has this line: "Rates of divorce have increased considerably between 1950 and 2000, although this trend [sic] had started rising before 1950."
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by mynameisdumbnuts »

MJE wrote:But I just can't help having the feeling that Susie is nasty to the Seven because they are nasty to her, and they are nasty to her because she's nasty to them, and so on and on in never-ending circles. If only that vicious circle had never begun years back probably (and very likely over something quite trivial), they could have all been friends and worked together.
     But unfortunately life isn't like that shining vision of universal brotherhood. So we can debate all we like about Susie vs. the Secret Seven - but the whole situation is certainly quite life-like, at the least.
     I have to say, though, that Susie is someone I think it would be more comfortable to have on my side than opposed to me!
It's possible that the cycle of nastiness began over a silly slight from one side or the other and spiralled from there; however, my impression is that Susie persecutes the Seven solely because she wants to be a member and they won't admit her, and I can believe that's how it started. I don't think the Seven are actually mean to Susie. They don't target her the way she targets them. They don't concoct schemes to embarrass her, they don't make fun of her to her face, they don't interfere with her endeavours, whatever they may be. But Susie does all those things simply because she's not allowed to be in the Secret Seven. If the Seven ever did decide to expand, I would understand if they kept a ban against Susie because of her behaviour in the past.
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by mynameisdumbnuts »

70s-child wrote:
Anita Bensoussane wrote: I suppose the closest Enid Blyton came to that was with Barney's parents, who split up while Tessie was pregnant with Barney. Whether Barnabas and Tessie ever got divorced officially is unknown.
mynameisdumbnuts wrote: There's one more: Carlotta Brown's mother in the St. Clare's series ran away from her dad to go back to the circus.
I had forgotten about both of those! It is interesting though that in the two cases where she mentions an actual separation, one of the parent's has an circus background. It feels as if an exotic background was necessary to make the separation less .. noticeable/controversial/unusual?
If I remember correctly, Tessie and ... well, let's call her Mrs. Brown in absence of her real name, shared a couple of things in common: They were homesick for circus life and weren't there hints that they didn't get along with their in-laws? I thought Barney's grandma was quite frosty toward Tessie (although she seems perfectly nice in "Rat-A-Tat Mystery"), and Carlotta's grandmother struck me as quite strict and prim, someone who would make it quite clear she didn't approve of Mrs. Brown.

And as we all know from Blyton's circus stories, the circus is a happy, jolly place where people don't care where anyone else is from and it's a real family. :) So to a young reader it might make perfect sense that Tessie and Mrs. Brown "ran away home." Even for readers who haven't read, say, "Mr Galliano's Circus," they know circuses are awesome because people have monkeys and learn how to walk on their hands and all that fantastic stuff, so of course it makes sense the mothers went back there. They did their kids a big favour by taking them away from that stuffy upper-middle-class life! I don't think it's about making the separations less noticeable/controversial/unusual but about making them rational to the mind of a child. And I think Blyton achieved that.

The grown-up me wonders how Tessie and Mrs. Brown met their husbands, what prompted them to get married and what prompted them to run away.
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Re: Which character's ears would you most like to box?

Post by snugglepot »

My choice would be Peter from the Secret Seven.
He annoyed me so much. He was so bossy and the way he treated his fellow club members was terrible.
I cheered when Jack spoke back to him and walked out.
Did Peter ever mellow? I can't remember. My thoughts are that he stayed just as obnoxious to the end!
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