The Six Bad Boys

The books! Over seven hundred of them and still counting...
Katharine
Posts: 12284
Joined: 25 Nov 2009, 15:50

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Katharine »

I bought this book at about 11.00 am today. Twelve hours later I've finished it. It only took me that long because I had to shop, cook dinner etc. etc. :D

I was nervous about reading it, as I knew a little bit about the story line, but I thought it was very well written. I would have liked to have read it as a child to see what sort of impression it would have made on me, as I'm sure it looks different through an adult's eyes. I loved the letter at the front from Enid. I'm glad she mentioned that she'd checked the facts for the juvenile court. Assuming it to be true, I found it amazing to think that children that young would have appeared before magistrates just for keeping a wallet of money. I'm pretty certain it wouldn't be like that today. I'm not saying it's ok to keep money that's been found, but I'm fairly sure that nowadays a simple caution would have been issued, I can't get my head around the idea that a child would be sent to an approved school for a first offence.

I had read somewhere that Mrs. Kent was portrayed as a bad mother because she'd gone out to work. I was relived to see it wasn't as black and white as that. I only recently returned to work myself, and have at times felt guilty, but compared to Mrs. Kent I think I'm in line for a 'Mother of the Year' award. :wink: I know that in the 1950s, working mothers weren't as common, but I think the biggest problem was her resentment towards her son. A decent mother could have worked without neglecting her child, either by only working a few hours, getting a job closer to home, or make adequate arrangements for his care while she was at work.

I felt the portrayal of Tom's family was a little too simplistic, and quite frankly a little hypocritical of Enid - she presumably conveniently forgot that she'd kicked her own children's father out. Obviously attitudes were different then, so maybe staying married at all costs might have been better than the potential shame of a divorce, but I do think that today, in some cases it is better for children to have divorced parents rather than them staying in an unhappy marriage. However I think the biggest problem with that family, wasn't that the parents probably didn't love each other any more, was the fact that they made the children take sides, and didn't consider the children's feelings at all. For example, Mrs. Berkeley not bothering with Christmas for the children, and presumably Mr. Berkeley not even writing to them, or meeting up with them somewhere from time to time.

I don't know whether it was 'poetic licence' on Enid's part, or whether attitudes were very different in 1951, but I'm amazed that Mrs. Kent wasn't charged with neglect. I was glad to see that Jack's family were given help, although an overcrowded house isn't necessarily an excuse for his behaviour. I do wonder what would have happened to Patrick, would he have ever seen the error of his ways, or would he be the sort of person who would spiral into the same kind of adult behaviour as his father? Would have been 'corrected' by the 'knock it out of them' regime that was probably the norm in the 1950s. Was there more to his behaviour than his home life, was he slightly dyslexic which would account for his love of comics rather than books? Did he misbehave at school because he wasn't able to grasp the lessons - no teaching assistant support back then, kids were either 'bright' or 'stupid'.

I think the book was such a clever one, and unusually the children didn't all learn their lessons instantly as they usually seem to in her stories. I also thought she did well to paint the backgrounds to the children, and show their vulnerability too. At the end of the day, I felt they were really just a group of little boys who needed a lot of love and care.

For me the strongest feeling I've taken away from the book is the 'home' they made for themselves, especially Patrick's toy telephone. Obviously he shouldn't have stolen it, but the fact that it was so important to him made me feel very sad for him.

I'm not sure I'll be in a hurry to read it again, as it's quite thought provoking, and I like my books to flow over me, however I was relieved that it wasn't upsetting like 'Come to the Circus', so I'm sure I'll be reading it again.
Society Member
User avatar
Rob Houghton
Posts: 16029
Joined: 26 Feb 2005, 22:38
Favourite book/series: Rubadub Mystery, Famous Five and The Find-Outers
Favourite character: Snubby, Uncle Robert, George, Fatty
Location: Kings Norton, Birmingham

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Rob Houghton »

Katharine wrote:
I felt the portrayal of Tom's family was a little too simplistic, and quite frankly a little hypocritical of Enid - she presumably conveniently forgot that she'd kicked her own children's father out. Obviously attitudes were different then, so maybe staying married at all costs might have been better than the potential shame of a divorce, but I do think that today, in some cases it is better for children to have divorced parents rather than them staying in an unhappy marriage. However I think the biggest problem with that family, wasn't that the parents probably didn't love each other any more, was the fact that they made the children take sides, and didn't consider the children's feelings at all. For example, Mrs. Berkeley not bothering with Christmas for the children, and presumably Mr. Berkeley not even writing to them, or meeting up with them somewhere from time to time.
I hadn't really thought of it being hypocritical but of course, it is. It's widely believed that the Berkeley's were based on Enid's own family as a child, and the scene where Mr Berkeley walks out was lifted straight from Enid's own memories of her father walking out, so they were very personal scenes to Enid. It's interesting that your first impression was that this portrayal was a little simplistic, as its pretty much based on fact - though admittedly, as Enid saw it as a 12 year old. I always feel Enid was exorcising a few ghosts of her own with this part of the book - even down to the details about the children pretending that their father was away on business etc. Her bitterness towards her mother is also clearly demonstrated, I feel. 8) Interestingly, Enid also used her own initials for the character for Eleanor Berkeley, and the initials of her brother Hanley for Hilda Berkely. 8)
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



Society Member
Katharine
Posts: 12284
Joined: 25 Nov 2009, 15:50

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Katharine »

Rob, I had read that the Berkeley family was based on Enid's childhood. I wonder if she deliberately wrote it as a way form of therapy, or didn't realise there was a connection? When I said it was a bit simplistic, I meant the suggestion that if the father stayed, and everyone tried a bit harder, everything would be ok. Obviously it was a children's book, but I'd like to know quite why Mr. Berkeley lost his previous job. Was he nagged into one he couldn't realistically cope with by his wife? Was he a bit lazy and didn't give it his full commitment etc.? I wonder if Enid felt her brother's sided with her mother?

I hadn't noticed the EB initials, but I did notice that the house was called Summerhayes, which I thought was very similar to Southernhay where Enid was a teacher.

As for Enid being hypocritical, I don't say that I blame her for ending her marriage to Hugh, just that the story line doesn't reflect her own experience. However I think that really sums up Enid's character. The book I feel was written by the child in Enid, where most of the blame in put on parents for not bringing their children up properly. I don't think it occurred to her that she might potentially havr a detrimental effect on her own children by keeping them from their father. She obviously failed to see that history repeated itself when she made her own children pretend Kenneth was their father, in the same way her mother had made a young Enid pretend her father was only away on business.

A very good book in my opinion, and while I wouldn't say I enjoyed it - I prefer picnics on sunny beaches, with some hidden treasure to be found - I think quite possibly it was Enid's best book.
Society Member
User avatar
Rob Houghton
Posts: 16029
Joined: 26 Feb 2005, 22:38
Favourite book/series: Rubadub Mystery, Famous Five and The Find-Outers
Favourite character: Snubby, Uncle Robert, George, Fatty
Location: Kings Norton, Birmingham

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Rob Houghton »

I think it was very definitely written from 'Enid the Child's' viewpoint, as you suggest. Especially the Berkeley situation. When you commented that it was written as a case of 'if only everyone had tried harder they might have stayed together' that sounds just how Enid must have felt about her father leaving. I know she definitely blamed her mother.

It does seem that history repeated itself, and that Enid couldn't see it, although extra-marital affairs were involved in Hugh and Enid's case...and Hugh's drinking etc, I presume. (its a while since I read the biography so I'm not quite sure on the order of things!)

I agree about The Six Bad Boys being one of Enid's best books - certainly her most 'realistic'. I also agree its not a really comfortable read, and I too would rather have picnics and adventures than 'realism' but its a book that deserves more recognition than it seems to get.
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



Society Member
Katharine
Posts: 12284
Joined: 25 Nov 2009, 15:50

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Katharine »

Rob Houghton wrote:....' but its a book that deserves more recognition than it seems to get.
I agree. I think anyone who dismisses Enid Blyton as someone who just wrote pre-school Noddy books and 'lashings of' Famous Five stories should be made to read this book. Even if they don't like it, it would hopefully show them that she was capable of tackling a wide range of subjects.

I don't know if the book would ever be reprinted. The trouble is that although I felt that for an Enid Blyton book it was very modern (washing machines, amusement arcades, comics etc. - even 'boring' kissing in a film), it does portray the stereotypical man being the provider, the woman staying at home. I personally think the book was deeper than that, although Mrs. Kent was criticised for working when 'she didn't need to', I felt the important point was that she put herself before her young son. However I'm sure the PC brigade would just focus on the idea that a woman's place appeared to be in the home, rather than the balance of the MacKenzies who worked together as a family. Although Mrs. MacKenzie was a stay at home mother, I felt she and her husband were equals.

One other point that's just struck me, the adults feature very heavily in this book, unlike the majority of Enid's books where they are usually figures in the background, who are conveniently absent for much of the story.
Society Member
User avatar
Rob Houghton
Posts: 16029
Joined: 26 Feb 2005, 22:38
Favourite book/series: Rubadub Mystery, Famous Five and The Find-Outers
Favourite character: Snubby, Uncle Robert, George, Fatty
Location: Kings Norton, Birmingham

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Rob Houghton »

It would be interesting to read a modern reprint and see if anything has been altered! The last printing according to The Cave was 2013 but I still see this for sale regularly on eBay and Amazon -

Image
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



Society Member
Katharine
Posts: 12284
Joined: 25 Nov 2009, 15:50

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Katharine »

Thanks Rob, I didn't realise it had been printed as recently as that. I'm hoping to get an older copy one day, but I think that the 1999 version I've got was probably fairly true to the original. There was one reference I think to some pocket money being a pound or two, which would have presumably been a modern update, and the illustrations in mine show the children in modern clothes, but other than that I would guess it's not been modernised, although I didn't notice the words 'queer' or 'gay', so maybe it has been tweaked a little. On the whole I thought the book had a fairly modern theme, (other than the working mother issue), although references to boiling kettles on gas, and lighting fires gave away its age in places - not that I mind.
Society Member
User avatar
Anita Bensoussane
Forum Administrator
Posts: 26768
Joined: 30 Jan 2005, 23:25
Favourite book/series: Adventure series, Six Cousins books, Six Bad Boys
Favourite character: Jack Trent, Fatty and Elizabeth Allen
Location: UK

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Katharine wrote:I bought this book at about 11.00 am today. Twelve hours later I've finished it. It only took me that long because I had to shop, cook dinner etc. etc. :D
I thought you'd find it hard to put down, Katharine! :D I remember devouring House-at-the-Corner, The Put-Em-Rights and The Land of Far-Beyond at a gulp when I discovered them as an adult. I stayed up late to finish each of them as I simply had to know what happened in the end!
Katharine wrote:Assuming it to be true, I found it amazing to think that children that young would have appeared before magistrates just for keeping a wallet of money. I'm pretty certain it wouldn't be like that today. I'm not saying it's ok to keep money that's been found, but I'm fairly sure that nowadays a simple caution would have been issued, I can't get my head around the idea that a child would be sent to an approved school for a first offence.
I too was amazed. It also surprised me that the Court devoted most of their attention to the finding and keeping of the wallet, having far less to say about an earlier crime involving the Gang dividing up money which Patrick stole after he and Tom broke into a newsagent's. I'd have thought the burglary was a more serious matter!
Katharine wrote:I had read somewhere that Mrs. Kent was portrayed as a bad mother because she'd gone out to work. I was relived to see it wasn't as black and white as that. I only recently returned to work myself, and have at times felt guilty, but compared to Mrs. Kent I think I'm in line for a 'Mother of the Year' award. :wink: I know that in the 1950s, working mothers weren't as common, but I think the biggest problem was her resentment towards her son. A decent mother could have worked without neglecting her child, either by only working a few hours, getting a job closer to home, or make adequate arrangements for his care while she was at work.

I agree that there were several options Mrs. Kent could have considered but, as you say, her selfish attitude meant she wouldn't have been prepared to compromise. There is one point at which Enid Blyton appears to condemn working mothers in general, i.e. when Bob says to Mrs. Mackenzie, "I know lots of other mothers go out to work and aren't home, like you are, to welcome their children and get them their tea - but I bet all those kids hate it as much as I did!" That's despite the fact that Enid Blyton herself worked long hours when her children were young - at home, yes, but shut away in her study! Taking the story as a whole, however, Mrs. Kent is shown to be an unfit mother not because of her desire to work, but because she is hard and unloving and regards her son as an encumbrance.
Katharine wrote:I felt the portrayal of Tom's family was a little too simplistic, and quite frankly a little hypocritical of Enid - she presumably conveniently forgot that she'd kicked her own children's father out.
It makes me gasp when Mrs. Mackenzie tells Mrs. Berkeley bluntly that Mr. Berkeley was "a good man and a kind one" and advises Mrs. Berkeley to write him a letter apologising for her behaviour and begging him to come back. Mrs. Mackenzie clearly believes in plain speaking but her forthright manner puts me in mind of Sally in The Put-Em-Rights! Rather than her telling Mrs. Berkeley what she ought to do, I'd like to have seen her taking a gentler approach and offering to help in some way - e.g by saying she'd be happy to look after the three Berkeley children for a night or two if Mrs. Berkeley needed time to meet up with her husband and talk things over.
Katharine wrote:However I think the biggest problem with that family, wasn't that the parents probably didn't love each other any more, was the fact that they made the children take sides, and didn't consider the children's feelings at all. For example, Mrs. Berkeley not bothering with Christmas for the children, and presumably Mr. Berkeley not even writing to them, or meeting up with them somewhere from time to time.
I agree. That kind of behaviour would make the children feel uncomfortable, anxious and neglected as well as sad.
Katharine wrote:I think the book was such a clever one, and unusually the children didn't all learn their lessons instantly as they usually seem to in her stories. I also thought she did well to paint the backgrounds to the children, and show their vulnerability too. At the end of the day, I felt they were really just a group of little boys who needed a lot of love and care.
I like the comment made by magistrate Basil Henriques in his foreword to the Lutterworth Press editon of the book: "It is the unhappy children rather than the 'bad' ones who come before the courts..."
Katharine wrote:For me the strongest feeling I've taken away from the book is the 'home' they made for themselves, especially Patrick's toy telephone. Obviously he shouldn't have stolen it, but the fact that it was so important to him made me feel very sad for him.
Wasn't it Fred's toy telephone? Not that it makes any odds. The "home from home" element of the book has always stayed with me, as has the image of Bob peering longingly into families' lighted living-rooms, desperate to belong to a caring family himself.
"Heyho for a starry night and a heathery bed!" - Jack, The Secret Island.

"There is no bond like the bond of having read and liked the same books."
- E. Nesbit, The Wonderful Garden.


Society Member
User avatar
Anita Bensoussane
Forum Administrator
Posts: 26768
Joined: 30 Jan 2005, 23:25
Favourite book/series: Adventure series, Six Cousins books, Six Bad Boys
Favourite character: Jack Trent, Fatty and Elizabeth Allen
Location: UK

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Rob Houghton wrote:Enid also used her own initials for the character for Eleanor Berkeley, and the initials of her brother Hanley for Hilda Berkely. 8)
Katharine wrote:I hadn't noticed the EB initials, but I did notice that the house was called Summerhayes, which I thought was very similar to Southernhay where Enid was a teacher.
Interesting observations. Enid's brother Hanly confirmed that certain scenes in The Six Bad Boys are heavily autobiographical, so it's not surprising to find echoes of real-life names in the fictional ones.
Katharine wrote:I'm sure the PC brigade would just focus on the idea that a woman's place appeared to be in the home, rather than the balance of the MacKenzies who worked together as a family. Although Mrs. MacKenzie was a stay at home mother, I felt she and her husband were equals.
That's an important point, Katharine. Throughout the book we see Mr. and Mrs. Mackenzie discussing family issues and making plans together. They both make valuable contributions and listen to/respond to one another with respect and love. It's very much a partnership of equals as you say. If one works outside the home while the other takes on most of the domestic tasks, what does that matter? The main thing is that they share the same aim and support one another in trying to achieve it, doing their level best to provide for their family's needs, emotional as well as financial.
"Heyho for a starry night and a heathery bed!" - Jack, The Secret Island.

"There is no bond like the bond of having read and liked the same books."
- E. Nesbit, The Wonderful Garden.


Society Member
Katharine
Posts: 12284
Joined: 25 Nov 2009, 15:50

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Katharine »

Anita, there's no Fred in my version, have the names been changed? There's Patrick, Will, Les and Jack. Someone has very kindly sent me an older version of the book, and Les appears to be Len in there.

I hadn't thought of the burglary aspect. I wonder if it was partly the sums of money involved? Or maybe it was because Enid wanted to focus on the 2 main characters, and it was Tom who found the wallet.

I did think it was a bit odd of Mrs. Mackenzie being so blunt to Mrs. Berkeley, simply because I wouldn't have thought it the 'done thing' for a respectable woman to speak in such a way. As Mrs. Mackenzie seems to be such a kind, caring person, it does seem a little odd for her to be so harsh. I can't remember, did she give Mrs. Kent a piece of her mind too?

I was pleased with the ending of the book which gave us a glimpse of the future. I was glad to see that there were mixed results too, and not a 100% 'happy ever after'. Bob perhaps predictably ended up happy and settled, but Tom thankfully seems to be on the right track, and perhaps just as importantly, his family are too.

I think it was right of Enid to leave Patrick as an unknown quantity, to have had him neatly turn over a new leaf isn't perhaps very realistic, sadly some people either can't or won't change, or at least not that quickly. I'd like to think that perhaps he would have done a spell of National Service which would have given him the security and sense of belonging he craved, but the discipline he needed, and hopefully he could have learned a skill/trade which he could have continued into civilian life.
Society Member
User avatar
Anita Bensoussane
Forum Administrator
Posts: 26768
Joined: 30 Jan 2005, 23:25
Favourite book/series: Adventure series, Six Cousins books, Six Bad Boys
Favourite character: Jack Trent, Fatty and Elizabeth Allen
Location: UK

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Katharine wrote:Anita, there's no Fred in my version, have the names been changed? There's Patrick, Will, Les and Jack.
Yes, some of the names have been changed. In the original book the chapter 'The Gang' begins, "Down in the town there was a little gang of boys. The youngest was eight, the oldest was fifteen. There were four of them, Len, Jack, Patrick, a wild Irish boy, and Fred." We're told that Fred, the oldest, "pinched" the phone from a toy-shop and is "very proud of it indeed." I wonder what young readers in the smartphone age make of a fifteen-year-old boy being so proud of owning a toy phone?!

Len might seem a little old-fashioned these days, but I've known children snigger at the name Les! :roll:

I can't remember whether Mrs. Mackenzie also gives Mrs. Kent a piece of her mind but it's perfectly possible!
Katharine wrote:I was pleased with the ending of the book which gave us a glimpse of the future. I was glad to see that there were mixed results too, and not a 100% 'happy ever after'.
I love the 'One Year Later' chapter too. It's a lovely touch and leaves things on a hopeful note while acknowledging that there are no easy solutions to problems like the ones addressed in the book.
"Heyho for a starry night and a heathery bed!" - Jack, The Secret Island.

"There is no bond like the bond of having read and liked the same books."
- E. Nesbit, The Wonderful Garden.


Society Member
User avatar
sixret
Posts: 4130
Joined: 16 Aug 2006, 14:25
Favourite book/series: Five Find-Outers,Mr.Twiddle,Barney R
Favourite character: Mr.Twiddle,Fatty,Saucepan,Snubby

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by sixret »

Very good discussions. I enjoyed reading all the reviews and the comments here. I read the book in 2008 or 2009 and I have a hazy memory but I remember I liked it very much.
I stand with justice and the truth. Palestine will be free from the river to the sea.

Learn the history. Do research.

The hypocrisy, double standard, prejudice and bigotry own by some people is so obvious.Shame on them!
MARKTAYLORUK
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 Jul 2019, 16:40

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by MARKTAYLORUK »

Patrick - National Service didn't exactly cure the Krays!
MARKTAYLORUK
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 Jul 2019, 16:40

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by MARKTAYLORUK »

To be more accurate - supposed to hand in lost property!
Boodi 2
Posts: 2782
Joined: 03 Nov 2020, 22:10
Favourite book/series: The Five Find-outers, The Six Cousins
Favourite character: Ern
Location: Germany

Re: The Six Bad Boys

Post by Boodi 2 »

Unfortunately I no longer have "The Six Bad Boys" (it was part of my collection that my mother gave to a younger cousin as she thought that I had "grown out" of my Blyton books) but I remember that I really enjoyed it and it is one of the books that I am searching for. Oddly enough, the reference to the toy telephone has always stuck in my mind!!!
Society Member
Post Reply