The Three Golliwogs

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tix
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by tix »

I was just about to make another post when I read several more that had appeared and it made me aware there is much bitterness being nursed and the teacher-response quoted in one message is shocking. I can also see that I’ve been considerably misunderstood in many instances mainly because of members’ haste to paste up reactions. (A cool head is always wiser).
Many thanks to you all for your stimulating contributions because that’s what notice-boards are all about. I can’t answer all of the comments because some were difficult to follow due to the feelings interspersed with the words and I hope that “Julian” is mature enough to catch on to the fact that I would never insult him because I don’t like to do that at all. Sometimes people interpret Plain Speaking in an insulting kind of way. It’s almost as if they were dying to find someone whom they can pounce upon and ….…… insult?? I think I’ve given them a good opportunity and it can be very therapeutic to Get It All Out Of The System!
I also suspect a few remarks may have come from rather young people but that’s only a guess.
I will post my original and unaltered message and you will see at the end why I can’t go on further although I would like to because every entry deserves a reply (note the paragraphs).

*****************************************************************

[Anita Bensoussane]: “I don't know anything about paragraphs in Arabic and I can't read or write the language, but it doesn't have hieroglyphics!”

It’s all “hieroglyphics” to me but then English is probably “hieroglyphics” to foreigners. I guess the “Semitic” word you used is a derivative of “Semite” and I believe they were around in biblical times but I was never too hot on history (Moonraker could supply any information needed). I’ve seen Arabic script and you’re right, it’s a nice-looking pattern but that’s about all it is to me and would still be after six university courses on how to read and print it. I have respect for people of that persuasion who go to the trouble to learn English so that we can understand what they have to say. English speakers are rather lazy as far as learning languages goes but I think that’s probably because English is so wide-spread and we don‘t have to bother. Just a day or so ago I saw that one contributor to this board said he or she knew French and English and maybe another language besides the native one. That’s wonderful.

**************************************************************

[Anita Bensoussane]: “I don't think it's as simple as that at all.”

Point noted, and that’s why the problem needs No.1 priority in the education system. The victims who have had the mark of bullying left on them and the “shattering of confidence and self esteem” were not taught how to handle it from the start.

As far as “systematic verbal bullying” goes a bully will gravitate towards those who are susceptible. “Physical” bullying is an extension of the problem but it shouldn’t have to come to that if children are instructed at an early age with a little basic (very basic) psychology. Like every other child in this world I wasn’t taught anything positive about how to confront a bullying situation and when, in my teens, I was attacked at school by a bigger boy I had to resort to the physical method of defence. Fortunately, being an exponent of wrestling and judo, I was able to get my assailant down on the ground and apply a hold which left him helpless. He attacked me again and I repeated the procedure. He then ran off with a parting remark: “I’ll get you another time!” We became good friends after that for reasons that don’t need much exploration. Looking back on it I know exactly how it could have been avoided but no teacher had imparted the simple modus operandi to me.

Most times bullies aren’t noticed and taken aside before the damage is done but if they are discovered then naturally they can be “put on the right path” as it were. It’s probably a matter of whether you want the ambulance at the top or at the bottom of the cliff - and now we are completely “Off Topic” so the Moderators had better do something “Fast!!” Incidentally, congratulations on becoming a Moderator. That “Global Moderator” tag looks very distinguishing and it has an atmosphere about it. The picture I get is of an Angel above the World spreading her arms out to “Moderate” although I’m not all that clear on what the work entails apart from making sure the message board is orderly.
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by RDMorrell »

Seeing as the topic now seems to be completely devoted to bullying, please allow me to recommend this site:

http://www.bullyonline.org

It really is a fantastic site, although its founder, Tim Field, has sadly passed away due to cancer. Mainly, it deals with workplace bullying, although there is a section on school bullying. But pages such as the one about serial bullies and "What is bullying?" are extremely well worth reading.

I myself was bullied quite a lot at school, and even experienced it in the workplace (in a part-time job that I've long since got out of). The workplace bullying was verbal, while the school bullying was a mix of verbal and physical. I have made mention elsewhere of being cyberstalked once; I would also regard that as a kind of extreme form of bullying.

One of the big problems with bullying is that the victims (or as the Bullyonline site calls them, targets) always seem to get the blame. It's never the bully's fault, for some reason. This kind of misconception has to change in order for bullying to start being dealt with more effectively across the board. Bullies need to be made accountable for their behaviour. However, many of them are experts at evading accountability (through tactics like denial, counter-attack, turning on tears etc.) and sadly, they are often all too successful at it.

Although I believe that bullying is the bully's fault, this doesn't mean that the target/victim has to be helpless. You can't control a bully's actions, but you can control your own actions or reactions. I used to react quite badly to the bullying I got at school, and I think it probably exacerbated the situation. If I'd laughed it off or ignored it, it mightn't have gone away completely, but it may have happened less often. I handled the workplace bullying somewhat better, but when the bully (who was also the boss) told me to "eff off" one day, I kind of lost it and slammed the door on the way out. After six months of copping some pretty heavy verbal abuse, I'd had enough and was going to let him know it. But I must admit that some of the emotions from when I got bullied at school came back up to the surface. He then got all self-righteous on me, which is something else that bullies do when confronted with their behaviour. He accused me, in an e-mail, of having no self-control, which I thought was pretty rich coming from someone who had yelled and sworn at me only a few hours earlier! (Many bullies are total hypocrites, and will frequently deplore the very things they themselves are guilty of, especially when someone gives them a little of their own medicine.) A few years later, I saw him abusing people in a couple of auction site forums, but had the satisfaction of seeing him get banned from those same forums.

Bullying can take on various forms. Verbal bullying especially can have many manifestations. Name-calling is one of the most obvious. But another type is emotional bullying (especially emotional blackmail). This happens more in close relationships or friendships. The woman who cyberstalked me was, among other things, an emotional bully. Before I cut ties with her, she would sometimes threaten to never talk to me again if I didn't meet some demand or other, or say that she felt our "friendship" had no future. I have actually discovered that the best way to deal with emotional bullying is to call the bully's bluff. E.g. in response to a threat like "I'll never talk to you again if you don't do this," say something like "I'm sorry you feel like this, but if you want to go that route, fine." One time, when the woman said in a flash of temper that she hated me and never wanted to talk to me again, I coolly said "OK, catch you tomorrow then." She calmed down instantly. Much of the time, emotional blackmail really is a bluff. Even if the person actually carries out the threat and gives you the silent treatment or whatever, just act like it doesn't bother you. Carry on as normal, as much as is reasonably possible. Once the bully sees they can't control you that way, they'll back down.

And actually, that is the heart of all bullying - control. Whether they're trying to get a reaction out of you or make you do something for them, all bullies and abusers are trying to control, subjugate and dominate you (you'll read a lot more about that on the Bullyonline site). When you realise this, you can start to do something about it. If you think your bully is gunning for a reaction, don't react, or alternatively, react in some way that he or she doesn't expect. If the bully falsely accuses you of something, don't defend yourself, but calmly ask him or her to prove the accusation. Most of the time, the bully will be making it up, so won't have any proof, and will be forced into an embarrassing retraction. Those are a couple of simple examples of how you can turn the tables and put the bully on the back foot. What you do however depends on the bully and the type of bullying. Some bullies can be countered very easily. They tend to be opportunistic, and maybe they're only bullying you because they think it's the "done thing" and they just want to be "cool". Or they may be malicious but not very bright. It's more difficult with groups, but if you can zero in on one or two "key players" and get them to stop, the rest will probably follow suit (a lot of "bully gangs" comprise one or two leaders and a bunch of "sheep"). At the other end of the scale, there are bona fide sociopaths (these are often the serial bullies) who are seriously evil but very smart individuals and experts at manipulation, lying, turning on the charm when necessary and at pushing all the right buttons (whether positive or negative). The sociopaths can do the most damage and also be the most difficult to handle. They don't give up when you try to ignore them or laugh them off. I think most of my school bullies were of the "opportunistic" type, though there were probably a couple of sociopaths in there. The workplace bully was almost certainly a sociopath. He was a really nasty piece of work, and yet could also be extremely charming and funny. Indeed, on those forums I mentioned, he had a number of "fans" who thought he was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and who were either completely blind to his abusive behaviour toward others or who joined in with him. He had a classic "Jekyll and Hyde" personality that many of the "best" bullies possess. He also had a charisma not dissimilar to some of the more notorious cult leaders and dictators of our time. The cyberstalker wasn't really a sociopath - just psychotic. But she also had somewhat of a Jekyll/Hyde personality. With bullies, especially sociopathic ones, Mr Hyde is the real deal, while Dr Jekyll is largely an act.

In an attempt to conclude this little ramble, let me say that although I share Robert's irritation with people who say or imply that bullying is all the fault of the bullied person, and that people who are bullied "bring it on themselves", I also think that you can do something about it if you have the right knowledge and can learn the right skills. Reading a site like Bullyonline will help in this respect. But even the best "anti-bullying" action sometimes isn't enough to stop bullying from happening, and although I think I'm a lot more skilled at dealing with bullies than I used to be (thankfully however, I haven't been confronted with too much bullying in recent years), I still find it a most unpleasant business and often feel frustrated at the persistent mentality that "it's all the victim's fault". Until some of the myths and legends surrounding bullying are exploded, and the advice on sites like Bullyonline paid more attention to, bullying in schools, workplaces, the Internet and anywhere else that human beings - small and large - come together will continue, and the perpetrators will keep getting away with it, all too often.
Best Regards

ROWAN M.

A room without books is like a body without a soul - Cicero
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Interesting and thought-provoking posts. I think you make some helpful points, Rowan.
[Tiq:] I guess the “Semitic” word you used is a derivative of “Semite” and I believe they were around in biblical times but I was never too hot on history (Moonraker could supply any information needed).
Just in case Moonraker is busy :wink: , there's some information on that here:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rl ... n&ct=title

Semitic peoples include Jews and Arabs, and Semitic languages include Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew (among others.)
[Viv:] To get a bit more onto topic - I've spent the weekend at a Trade Fair and have found some lovely golliwogs for the shop :D
Just wondering whether you've ever had any negative comments about the golliwogs you sell, Viv?

Anita
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by RDMorrell »

Just to get this thread somewhat back on topic, here's an episode of Love Thy Neighbour that I found on YouTube:

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vez4nInKJD8

Notice the "spades" joke.

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE0t11V1SD

At one stage during this part, Bill (the main black character) asks his wife: "Have you ever seen a white golliwog?"

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adf1-WewlSA&NR=1

I can remember watching this series in New Zealand some time in the 1980s, and quite enjoying it. It reminded me somewhat of The Jeffersons. In fact, I think it may have been conceived as a kind of British version of All in the Family (of which The Jeffersons was a spinoff), although I could be wrong. This episode is fairly representative of the series, in that although a lot of racist attitudes are expressed, they are ultimately shown to be foolish. Also, the wives are actually friends and both tend to mock and castigate their husbands. I guess they're kind of the "straight men" (or rather, straight women!) here. Another thing this episode, like the series as a whole, shows is that racism is not all one way. Although Bill is generally a more sympathetic character than Eddie, he can sometimes be just as guilty of prejudice and bigotry. Ironically, even though Eddie and Bill feud a lot, they really have a lot more in common than either of them would ever admit. But they are blinded by their prejudices, and also by their pride. (As Eddie's wife says near the end of the episode, it's not some kind of "battle of civilisations", it's all about his pride.)

Unfortunately, the sound in the second and third parts is out of sync (though this adds unintentional humour when it seems like Eddie and Bill are talking with each other's voices, or where Bill talks with his wife's voice and vice versa!).

On one level, some of it (like Eddie constantly referring to Bill as a "sambo") is pretty cringeworthy. However, I think it's clear enough that the overall message of the show is against this sort of stuff. Without being overtly moralistic, it shows how absurd and foolish racism (and by extension, other forms of bigotry) is, and that it is not something to be admired, but mocked, as this series does very well.
Best Regards

ROWAN M.

A room without books is like a body without a soul - Cicero
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Viv of Ginger Pop »

Anita Bensoussane wrote: Just wondering whether you've ever had any negative comments about the golliwogs you sell, Viv?
In three years, I've just had one altercation with a young lady of around 14 who I guess was of mixed race. She just couldn't accept that the 1930's golliwog she was looking at could ever have been thought of as anything other than ugly - she certainly didn't accept that I thought him handsome! 75 years ago characters often had "pop eyes" like the early Micky Mouse, and it was then considered cute. To modern kids, used to big round eyes, these characters now look very weird.

A group of black kids asked me what a golliwog is. When I explained, and how he had been removed from children's literature, they were outraged.

Some black people like golliwogs, and buy everything they see.

Others when they talk to me, say that they accept that they were part of the social fabric of the time, and do not see a problem with them.

Many white people come in and take a deep breath and say something like "I thought they were banned" or "I didn't think you were allowed to sell those anymore". I usually react by asking "and why do you think that" to get them to trot out the usual cliches. They will then usually go on to say that they themselves love gollys, had one as a favourite toy, or collected the Robertsons badges. I then say "did you become a member of the National Front or British National Party?". No one has - proving my point that those who like golliwogs are not the sort of people who become racists.

Over the summer I have met several teachers who will be doing life in post war Britain with their classes this term. My suggestion that they include golly is met with horror. "Not in Streatham" said one. "Especially in Streatham!" said I, thinking that the more London kids who knew the real background to the golliwog the better.

There is a toy that I stock that people should complain about if they are bothered about unpleasant characatures. It is a rubber face that you can manipulate on your fingers and pull into grotesque poses - and kids love it. What does it say about our society when there is no-one sticking up for ugly old men?

By the way Rowan - there is a company who produces a white golliwog! :lol:

Best wishes

Viv
Last edited by Viv of Ginger Pop on 04 Sep 2007, 09:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Caitlyn »

A most interesting and though-provoking topic. I liked the points that you mentioned, Viv .

Anyways, golliwogs have become "extinct" nowadays in the world of toys - but they were popular in Blyton's days.

Gosh - I am learning so much from these forums!
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Julie2owlsdene »

I'll pop into your shop next week Viv,as we're in Dorset for a week.

Would love to buy one of your Gollywogs if you've any left.

See you then.
Julie
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Rob Houghton »

some good comments, and thanks for the support from those who gave it.

I must say though, I don't think 'bullyonline' would have been on line in 1983, which was when the majority of my bullying expiriences took place, so it was very difficult for us 'victims' back then to learn techniques to stop the bullies.

I wish everything had been as simple and clear cut as Tiq sees things. How beautiful the world would be then!

As for suggesting we shouldnt answer posts until we have thought about it and aquired a 'cool head' - I think that's slightly insulting to contributors, and also rather impossible where a topic about bullying is involved! It is very much from the heart, not from the head, but it is no less important than thoughts concieved rationally in the head!

I am also a fan of plain speaking, Tiq, as you can probably tell. But plain speaking all depends on one's own knowledge of a subject. Sometimes that knowledge is from theory rather than practise. I'm sorry to say, most of my knowledge of bullying comes from actually being bullied. In my day, if you retaliated physically (which I very occasionally did) you would be caught and punished. Usually, the bullies were so plausible they got away with just a small telling-off.

Another factor of which Tiq would be unaware was that two of my 'bullies' were actually glue sniffing at the time, although no one knew until they were expelled a year later. With glue sniffers, what chance would anyone have? later, one of these lads knifed someone in the head on a bus and was jailed for threatening behaviour. I was just glad the victim that time was someone else and not me.

By the way, I'm 36 - which I suppose IS 'rather young' - thank you! 8)

Anyway, to get back on topic: I DID collect Robertson's golly badges ( I have five or six), and we have seen gollies in shops and thought they were banned - in fact, i related totally with Viv's post - wierd! It sounded just like us and (as yet) we havenet been anywhere near Viv's shop!! At last, Golliwogs seeme to be making a come back, and that is a very good thing.

Just the other day I bought a pen with a springy golly on the top, some mugs with gollies on, and also a golly salt and pepper set.

LONG LIVE THE GOLLIWOG! :P
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by manzanita »

lizarfau wrote:As for suggesting that the Alma Pudden storyline shows kids how they can deal with bullies ... well, to me it's right up there with suggesting that those cops investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann would do better if they read the Five Find-Outer books and disguised themselves Fatty-like to solve the mystery.
*chuckles* If I see any Portuguese red haired butchers boys in Praia de Luz, I'll know where they got the idea from!

Thanks by the way for your comment, it made me laugh so hard!

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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Kitty »

Robert Houghton wrote:hear, hear!

The bullying episodes in the school books, particularly regarding Alma Pudden, just go towards demonstrating just how little Enid knew about being bullied. It proves she herself was never actually bullied, because she was a popular (and forceful) member of her school.

What good would admitting you are fat do? Why admit you are at fault for being unfashionable/poor/rich/black/white/old/young/disabled etc etc. None of these are good reasons to be bullied, surely?

'Oh, sorry bullies: I'm black/disabled/unfashionable/poor etc, so I quite understand why you're bullying me, so go ahead...' What a load of rubbish.
I loathe the resolution to the Alma Pudden plot. The only way I can get past it is by telling myself that EB allowing her "good" characters to behave so deplorably paints a fuller, more realistic picture of them and their less attractive qualities.

You're right, too, it's absolutely rotten advice! It decimates self-esteem. I can remember it being pretty prevalent when I was young, too, though - "be the first to laugh about yourself" etc. I was lucky, I wasn't persecuted, but in hindsight I can recall young children nobly trying to laugh it off while their hearts were breaking and it makes me enraged. Intimidating behaviour needs to be confronted, with the help of staff, not swept under the carpet or turned into a joke.
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by manzanita »

Robert Houghton wrote: In my day, if you retaliated physically (which I very occasionally did) you would be caught and punished. Usually, the bullies were so plausible they got away with just a small telling-off.
That is precisely the way my secondary school dealt with bullying and including my experience. I had it suggested to me that I should change so as not to antagonise the bully and any suggestion on my part that she should also receive help was shot down. It was MY fault I was being bullied and that was that as far as the school was concerned. Telling me to change was an easier option that confronting an endemic problem in my school and also protected their image and this bully from being expelled. Cynically I think because she got very good grades was a bonus to the school and expelling her would have knackered up their precious GCSE results.

There was one other boy who also suffered bad bullying and one day he stood up to the bullies and physically lashed back. Although, I don't condone that, I totally understand why he did - school's response? Chuck him out for being unruly and never mind the bullies because that's what kids do. With an attitude like that, how is it ever going to change? You can apply that to the workplace - if your line manager pushes it under the carpet, then it becomes entrenched and by default accepted.

Yes, kids do bully and in many species, bullying occurs to establish the hierarchy for food etc etc, but just because it happens and is natural and normal does not make it right in the slightest. As humans we're born with the capacity to reason, assess and reflect on our behaviour and how these schools can live with themselves I don't know.

I wasn't going to post again on this subject as this is supposed to be about golliwogs, but it's a subject very close to my heart.

Manzy

I have deleted the bottom part of this Manzy as I don't think you meant to include it. Tony
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Re: Bullying

Post by Susie »

Just to add on the subject of bullying, that the reason many people don't answer back the "right way" or act the "right way" when getting bullied, is because they are too shocked and stunned, and all the clever words that they could have said, go out of the window. It's as if they have fallen under a spell.
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by DarrellRivers »

With all due respect tiq, I do think that your posts on this thread come across as a bit condescending and high-handed :| And, older is not always wiser :lol:
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by tam »

I haven't had time to add to this topic in awhile, as I was out of town. It has taken an interesting turn, and an important turn at that. Bullying has become a huge topic in schools here, and about time. I think the school shootings in the U.S. has really made educators sit up and take notice of the extreme damage bullying can do. In most cases of school shootings, the perpetrators were bullied or ostracized in school. Bullies need intervention at a young age, to learn to deal with their aggression. It's no longer a matter of "kids will be kids...", the targets of bullies need support to learn how to deal with bullies, but also to work through their emotions.
Another key piece, and this is huge in education right now, is educating the by-standers. There is a big movement in talking to classmates about coming to the victim's aid in a bullying situation. In only takes one individual to stand up, and the tide will turn. Others will see this courageous act, and hopefully follow. By-standers also need to know when to seek help for the victim, and the teachers need to react. No one is condoning tattling, but there is value in teaching kids the difference between tattling and informing.
This is a topic that is important to me, and my heart goes out to all who have been bullied. It is important to listen to your words, as you have experienced it first hand. I wish I had been brave enough to intervene when I was younger. I saw some bullying, and it still bothers me to this day.
I will try to post again soon, getting back to the topic of golliwogs. School has started, and you might have inferred from my above comments that I am a teacher. No time to think!!
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Moonraker »

Caitlyn wrote: Anyways, golliwogs have become "extinct" nowadays in the world of toys - but they were popular in Blyton's days.
Far from it, Caitlyn! I have just visited my brother, who lives in Norfolk, and golliwogs are on sale in many shops. I took the following pictures from a large store in Watton.

Image

This is a window display.

Image

This is the display in the shop.

As you can see, the golliwog is alive and well!
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