The Three Golliwogs

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tix
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by tix »

[tam]: “Tiq, it appears that you paint quite an unpleasant picture of me. I guess this can happen when people do not meet face to face. You only have my own words to go on, so fair's fair. I am really much more easy going than you portray.”

*********************************************

In some respects it could be like a red flag to a bull when Enid Blyton is criticised on a forum such as this because we tend to look upon the Blyton writings as the product of an innocent mind and if someone misinterprets that innocence then, as the author cannot defend herself, someone needs to come forward. She stuck up for herself quite well when she was alive and the record has it that her answer to those who were derisive of her works was “I take no note of critics who are over twelve years of age.” - Thank-You-Very-Much! Incidentally, my “Painting of an Unpleasant Picture” of you is only a figment. I asked “provocative” questions which were designed to make you back-track and look closely at what you had said and that’s all there is to it. My one concern as it might be for all the inhabitants of the Enid Blyton World is, as stated, to defend the author and point out any wrong impressions that outsiders may have of her works. Enid Blyton has been attacked repeatedly ever since her books first emerged yet her heritage has stood like a monument with countless aspiring authors passing by and heading towards oblivion.

It’s rather sad to think that you live in an environment where someone might take offence to a word which is spotted in a book that you own. From a lateral point of view, if they are your friends then there should be no problem, but it’s unfortunate that a word which represents prejudice is so frightening. When a parochial view of a harmless expression is carried across to England and embedded into a notice-board there is a reaction to the extent one must place things into context and that’s what one is attempting to do. Enid Blyton wrote many words that some people cannot confront but they were used innocently. An example would be the word “Darkie.” Darkie is the name of a child’s horse that was introduced into a wonderful book about farm life and it’s not really cricket for someone to enter and begin complaining to Mr. Longfield about the name of his daughter’s animal! Please America let the books retain their innocence.

There are some very highly strung individuals scattered around and also groups whose beliefs are so shaky that they will react to the slightest word or picture or action that they consider is opposed to their outlook on life. You will remember one of the more extreme instances where crowds lost control and invaded the streets with arms flailing in the air (I can almost see the strings and the invisible puppeteer above them). The reason for this outcry which resulted in the deaths of innocent people was simply that a cartoon depicting Mohammad was brought to their attention. This is a very satisfactory example of the way an attitude to an image or word or action can inflame. Notice I said that it was an “attitude” that caused the uprising. Imagine this: A riot occurs in the market place because someone apparently called out that So-and-So was a nigger. Yells and shouts spring up and a mass of humanity surges forward. When they part, there’s a dead body on the ground. The tapes are played back later and it’s found that the unfortunate person simply yelled out that So-and-So was “Bigger!” Immediate remorse, sorrow, shame and guilt could well become manifest but of course it would be too late. The word didn’t cause the death. It was the people’s ignorant and uncontrolled “attitude” that did so – attitudes which are often taught in the home. Words don’t hurt, but People do.

Forbidden words are used similarly but on a far lesser scale to the way bombs are used. First there is unhappiness with another country’s policies. Concerns are expressed. The leader talks to the other country’s leader. They cannot agree. The might yell at each other. No effect. Threats come next. No solution. They cannot cement a compromise. Finally the last resort is used - a bomb. It is dispatched and the resultant explosion and mayhem represents “Communication” and in the case of World War Two when “Little Boy” was dropped on the city of Hiroshima the Japanese sat up (those who could) and a dialogue was begun. Simple, but drastic! A perceived “evil” word is simply an infinitely lesser example of the bomb and likewise it is used to establish communication. Unfortunately you believe you can be hurt by a word and so do the Afro-American friends of whom you spoke. You remarked: “I know my friends are not offended by Huck Finn. They recognize the historical perspective of Huck Finn and other titles.” That’s great. Could “Other Titles” also include those of an English author - say Enid Blyton? If your friends could accommodate the “Word” in one author’s book, couldn’t they do so with that of another author whose books have been pointed out to you on this board as items of history - written in another country and in another era? I hope there’s no one out there who takes offence to Huckleberry Finn because of its references to the flogging of young people. A screed of comments on the pros and cons might arrive …… a complaint posted on the “Huckleberry Finn Society” notice board …… an organised book-purge. Those copies that escape can be wrapped and left high up on a shelf until the house burns down! Life can become very complicated when people with new values try to thrust them onto the old or perhaps replace them - even to venturing inside the protected surroundings of Enid Blyton Land. We could just leave them to it I suppose but we must defend the borders.

Your post was instructive - a very interesting insight into some of the slight differences that seem to exist amongst cultures and it’s rather unfortunate that the section of society you described still simmers with thoughts of the past. I suppose that happens in all countries. Referring to the end statement you made: “Verbal abuse is just as harmful as physical abuse, if not more so in some cases.” I say again that words can’t injure you. They are simply that which I described in the previous post. What may hurt is the aggression behind it. If a child yells prohibited words at its mother, the standard procedure is to punish it for speaking profanely. Wrong tack! Why shouldn’t the mother question herself and find out why the child is acting so? The words are simply representations of the aggression. Surely it is more important to fathom as to why the anger exists and then explore the relationship. If you have been conditioned into thinking a word in itself is “bad” it will naturally make you react negatively when you hear it. The enemy knows this and will use it liberally whilst he or she taunts you.

Every culture has a language sprinkled with expressions that are frowned upon and the stupidity of it is illustrated by my hinting of the word “Spade” as being a little dubious. From the feedback it seems as if it could be looked upon as unacceptable these days. “Spade” is a harmless word and God forbid that anyone would think otherwise. Some years ago it was a fairly derogatory term directed towards dark people and this probably came about because of the full black image portrayed on the playing cards. There’s a fellow who goes under the name “Moonraker” who contributes to this message-board and he seems to be the fount of all knowledge. Don’t go to Wikipedia, just wait for him to post. I waited because I knew that he would explain the “Spade” connection and he did. Basically it was one of those silly fashions that seem to come and go but one doesn’t run around calling black people “Spades” just as you don’t go around yelling out “Honky” to white people. It shows you how futile it is to worry about name-calling but you would probably disagree and that is your right. As for using the word “Spade” at the beach, or anywhere - no problems. I can think back to a TV comedy which screened in Britain many years ago. It was called “Love Thy neighbour”” and it was a good example of how people can laugh at their prejudices and take a completely opposite stance to the current way of thinking. A black couple lived next door to a white couple and the white man resented it. He abused the black man and got abuse back in his face. He used all the words that Americans may not like and the black man gave as much in return. The white man usually lost the battles of wit because he was an unarmed opponent and to add to that, the black man’s wife was more gorgeous than his. All in all I think everyone liked it that way. Some might say it was patronising but others could remark that it eased tension between the races when they realised that, with the right approach, you can laugh at anything. I would imagine you’ve never dared to watch American programmes such as “Amos and Andy” or “All in the Family!”

I do not except you to agree because it’s not all that easy to suddenly throw off baggage accumulated over countless years and your situation is of course quite different from mine. You’re there and I’m here. Looking at it on a wider scale I would hate to think of the reaction from some of those conservative countries in the East to things that are seen and discussed on this and other message boards throughout the world. We have representatives from those places who contribute to this forum and they have already felt the iron curtain of censorship falling down onto their computers. The world is changing. The internet and related technology is expanding so rapidly that, not only can we live on each other’s doorsteps, but we can also enter a house anywhere in the world through web-cams. Cultures are suddenly thrust together and quite brutally so. The English might clash with the Americans, culture-wise, on a tiny point which could be a bit depressing because the two countries are so close in their attitudes to life but it’s not the end of the world. I go back to the point I made in the last post - A whole race can’t be offended. It’s only individuals who “allow” themselves to be offended. You made a very apt point and here it is: “You have all given me much food for thought. Intellectually, I agree with much of what you have to say. Functionally I am not so sure.” “Functionally” is the keyword. Believe me, I can understand your point of view.

I very much welcomed your reply for which I thank you and your observation is valid: “I guess this can happen when people do not meet face to face. You only have my own words to go on, so fair's fair.” Yes, and vice-versa, and I “do” believe you are much more “easy going than I portray.”

“Tiq, I agree that a book deserves a better life than just sitting wrapped up on my bookshelf. PM me with your address and it is yours. I will be out of town for a few days, so my response might be a bit late.”

Thanks “very” much for that and it’s really kind of you to offer it to someone whom you thought was out to get you. I don’t know how to PM (I think it means Private Message and I may not be registered for it) so my address is: c/o Tumbledown Cottage, By the Wobbly Dum-Dum Tree, Dingley-Dell …… but in all seriousness I have to admit I was kidding a little. I had a look and dug up five copies of the dreadful book so everything’s all right in that department. What you might not know however is that hardened members of the Society exist and they would be very receptive. Other than that you could use a profitable way to dispose of it by offering it on the “eBay” auction network. A copy sold just a few days ago for a good price and you might as well make some money from something that sits incognito on a bookshelf and looks all forlorn. Thank you again for the kind offer.

Broadly, Enid Blyton represented a world of innocence which could be fast disappearing and her Fans would rather hold true to her memory than change anything to suit the new. (I’m going to have to look at that word “Fans” because I’m sure there’s some connotation attached to it)! Thank you for your incisive contribution.

*****************************************

[ Anita Bensoussane]: “Heh - such a coincidence! While I was typing my previous message, my daughter was playing with a hand-held electronic game in which, every so often, the character receives presents. Just as I submitted my previous message, an image flashed up on my daughter's game and she said, "I've got a spade as a present!"”

This tells me I’m not the only one who experiences baffling coincidences. So many come my way that I’m now logging them!

********************************************

[Kate Mary]: “Incidentally, the word 'spade' has been changed to shovel in the recent editions of the Faraway Tree stories.”

Do you mean to tell me that the censors thought “Spade” would be misinterpreted? If that’s the case then: “Goodnight All!!” I find that unbelievable and, once again, I would need proof! You’re quite right – shovels and spades do differ. I had always looked on them as having basically the same function.

[Kate Mary]: “OK, I know spade has a relatively little known and rarely used slang meaning, but it is just that - slang. The word has a true and legitimate meaning and use, if persons with brains the size of walnuts want to snigger at that, why should we change the texts of old books to suit them?”

A very good point!!! I wish I could use those emoticons - I’m limited to exclamation marks! (Like tam, “I am not a techie.”)
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Moonraker »

tiq wrote:There’s a fellow who goes under the name “Moonraker” who contributes to this message-board and he seems to be the fount of all knowledge. Don’t go to Wikipedia, just wait for him to post. I waited because I knew that he would explain the “Spade” connection and he did.
Do I detect a note of sarcasm here, or is it just plain old-fashioned admiration? :wink:
Thank-you, anyway, tiq, for those kind words!

You wrote a great composition, I really enjoyed reading it. Incidentally, a shovel is not a spade. try digging your garden with a shovel and your arms will drop off! A spade has a fairly flat blade, whilst a shovel has curled edges, and is used for gathering up larger amounts of material. For example, a fireman on a steam locomotive uses a shovel to put coal into the firebox. He wouldn't get much coal on a spade!

Speaking of Love Thy Neighbour, we have the complete series on DVD. We bought it as we simply loved it when it was aired on TV in the 70s. However, we can hardly bear to watch it now without feeling acutely embarrassed. It really is dreadfully racist, and would never been shown on TV to-day.
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Julian »

Tiq's posts are always soooooooo long.

I had to copied it to a word file and then divided it into paragraphs and read it! :lol:
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Moonraker »

Julian wrote:Tiq's posts are always soooooooo long.
It makes a very pleasant change from some of the banal one or two word posts we sometimes get! :D
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by manzanita »

Interesting thread... "honky" particularly stood out for me as it's not a word I'm familiar with in England. Our neighbour shouted it at a builder of ours because he parked in my neighbours opinion, his parking space. Specifically, it was "honky-tonk" he yelled.

I don't agree with the "words don't hurt" thought though. A word may not be able to break my skin and make me bleed, but words do hurt. As a child who was bullied all the way through primary school and secondary school, I know exactly how words can hurt. Words are used to communicate and if you are wanting to hurt someone, then words are a method of doing it. It might be just a "word" or a sound, but that didn't stop my confidence being destroyed as a child.

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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Rob Houghton »

I agree completely that words can hurt. Words hurt far more than punches. The scars from words dont heal as easily over time. I was bullied from about 11 - 14, and I know what words can do. I was hardly ever physically bullied: and any of the physical side of it has long since faded from my memory, but the name-calling and the hurtful things that were said never really go away. That was 22 years ago, and i can still remember how I felt back then.

Bullying has made me a stronger person, but at what cost? I'm often quite blunt now: I am sometimes too forceful with my opinions, and I hate to see others being bullied. I get the 'red mist' and I have to try very hard not to become a bully myself!

Words DO hurt: and their scars never leave us, believe me. 8)
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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tix
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by tix »

[Moonraker]: Do I detect a note of sarcasm here?

Absolutely not! It’s “admiration.” I think forum members would welcome the explanations you supply. It saves us having to trot off and try to locate information which is often rather hard to track down.

I used to look upon a shovel as being the same as a spade but you are right. I probably knew it but so rarely did I use a shovel that I never gave it much thought.

That was an interesting opinion on “Love Thy Neighbour.” I couldn’t see why TV would be against screening it these days. The programme seems pretty harmless and I thought the racist vein was the draw-card because it was satirical and daring. Although it wasn’t “Emmy Award” material it was light-hearted comedy and funny enough for a Saturday afternoon. Didn’t realise that it could be embarrassing nowadays but I bow to your opinion.

***************************************************************8
[Julian]: Tiq's posts are always soooooooo long.

You mentioned that somewhere before. Have you Arabs got a funny way of reading? You said you copied it and then divided it into paragraphs? It was already in paragraphs!! Maybe those weird hieroglyphics that you use in your country have paragraphs in every sentence. As it would take me about a thousand years to learn your language you will have to let me know if that’s the case and I’ll try to keep sentences to whatever length you tell me to! That “Almas” lady may be able to help as well by explaining the correlation between English and Arabic because she looks as if she lives in your area and she seems to have her head screwed on. At least she knows more about computers than me and you probably do as well seeing you can put in an “Avatar” and use those “Emoticons” (funny little heads that move). I can’t!

***************************************************************

[manzanita]: I don't agree with the "words don't hurt" thought though. A word may not be able to break my skin and make me bleed, but words do hurt. As a child who was bullied all the way through primary school and secondary school, I know exactly how words can hurt. Words are used to communicate and if you are wanting to hurt someone, then words are a method of doing it. It might be just a "word" or a sound, but that didn't stop my confidence being destroyed as a child.

You’ve confirmed my point entirely. Did you ever stop to think why you were bullied? What were you doing that caused the children to torment you? At a young age you couldn’t be expected to know hence my question as to “Why children are not taught how to react to teasing and bullying.” If you had taken no notice of the words directed at you and befriended your antagonists, things could have been different but children don’t know this. There is a reason why bullying occurs and the expressions used by your tormentors are simply the verbal aspect. Here’s an example and it’s supported by Enid Blyton herself. A girl named Alma Pudden was taunted because she was plump. If she had admitted it and agreed that she was fat and had sided with the girls (which is what EB suggested) the insults would have ceased. The cruel words directed at you were simply an audible representation of hatred or aggression and if your teachers had shown you how a word can act as a stimulus-response mechanism and educated you a little more into adopting a different attitude, you would have been able to eliminate the misery. Just as the person who suffers from arachnophobia can be taught not to react with fear when he or she hears the word “Spider” so can a bullied person be taught not to react to words which may precede physical aggression. (I hope this paragraph is not too long for that “Julian” man - or boy … I think he’s a boy).
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by DarrellRivers »

tam, I do totally agree and empathize with your feelings. Living and working in the US myself, I too know that that word is considered very offensive here. I would get fired if I happened to use the word in the work-place.
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Rob Houghton »

How insulting Tiq is to people who have been bullied. Obviously Tiq has never been bullied whoever he (or she) might be. how lucky you were, Tiq.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but just because you use five thousand-odd words to say it doesnt mean it's right. Please allow me to now put forward my opinion.

Just so you know, the people who bullied me WERE my friends. Usually it is so called friends that bully, not strangers. Tiq suggests befriending the antagonists. How would this have helped? For 99% of the time the antagonists WERE my friends. Sometimes the whole of my class joined in. Why? - because I wore slightly flared trousers when 'drain-pipes' were in fashion, and because my shoes were always nice and shiny. I went to school in an area where children's parents didnt care if they washed their off-spring's uniforms over the weekend, or whether their shoes were clean or not. I also didnt swear, so I was bullied. Many of the cruel words they used were directed at my parents,whom most of the bullies hadnt even met!

It made me extremely angry to read your ill-informed post, Tiq, especially as you seem to suggest that the bullied tend to ask to be bullied by the way they deal with the bullies!! What absolute nonsense that is.

I found your comments about Julian rather insulting too. people from Arab countries can read and write english, you know, often better than people from so-called English countries, and they do have feelings too. Your comments came across as extremely bigoted, and again, ill-informed.

As for the bullying issue: nothing makes my hackles rise more than seeing someone being bullied, as I said previously, and I felt you, Tiq, were bullying manzanita by suggesting they were somehow at fault and 'deserved' the bullying by the way they reacted. No one ever deserves to be bullied. Ever. :evil:
Last edited by Rob Houghton on 03 Sep 2007, 22:01, edited 4 times in total.
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

[Tiq:] Have you Arabs got a funny way of reading? You said you copied it and then divided it into paragraphs? It was already in paragraphs!! Maybe those weird hieroglyphics that you use in your country have paragraphs in every sentence. As it would take me about a thousand years to learn your language you will have to let me know if that’s the case and I’ll try to keep sentences to whatever length you tell me to!
I don't know anything about paragraphs in Arabic and I can't read or write the language, but it doesn't have hieroglyphics! Arabic is a Semitic language with 28 basic letters, and reads from right to left. Because a lot of the letters are curved, and dots and dashes are used too, the writing can look rather like a pattern. Indeed, stylised forms of Arabic are often used for decoration.
[Tiq:] Did you ever stop to think why you were bullied? What were you doing that caused the children to torment you? At a young age you couldn’t be expected to know hence my question as to “Why children are not taught how to react to teasing and bullying.” If you had taken no notice of the words directed at you and befriended your antagonists, things could have been different but children don’t know this. There is a reason why bullying occurs and the expressions used by your tormentors are simply the verbal aspect.
I don't think it's as simple as that at all. Victims of systematic verbal bullying may well try to "take no notice" of comments made by the bullies, but the feeling of not being accepted by one's peers - of being an outsider who is ridiculed and humiliated day in day out - will leave its mark on a person, probably long-term, shattering their confidence and self-esteem. It's the bullies who need to be made to change their attitude and realise how serious the consequences of their actions could be.

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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by DarrellRivers »

Robert Houghton wrote:
I found your comments about Julian rather insulting too. people from Arab countries can read and write english, you know, often better than people from so-called English countries, and they do have feelings too. Your comments came across as extremely bigoted, and again, ill-informed.
Well said Robert! I agree with your entire post. You said what I was thinking but wasn't quite sure how to express. Thank you for sticking up for us folks whose first language is not English. *claps hands*
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Viv of Ginger Pop »

tiq wrote: Did you ever stop to think why you were bullied? What were you doing that caused the children to torment you?
I was bullied for the colour of my skin.

How is an 11 year girl old supposed to react to 13 years old boys leaving notes that say "ENOCH POWELL" in her school desk? I had barely heard of the politician; it was all above my head but I knew it was unpleasant.

Previously at Junior school I asked my teacher how to respond to the bullies who were name calling. "Just call them white honkies" he replied. I'd never heard of the term, and in a Dorset school suspect that my classmates hadn't either. Looking back, I really wish my classmates had been read "The little black doll" before I joined them from London. How I longed to go back to London - I'd never met any racism there!

The "problem" was theirs. ALL bullying is unpleasant, and I now regard racial bullying as no different to any other kind of bullying; always it is painful to the recipient, and is also symptomatic of insecurity and ignorance of the perpetrator. If it isn't about race, it will be size, geekishness, spectacles... - bullies hate diversity and will always find a reason to be unpleasant to someone!

To get a bit more onto topic - I've spent the weekend at a Trade Fair and have found some lovely golliwogs for the shop :D

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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by manzanita »

tiq wrote: You’ve confirmed my point entirely. Did you ever stop to think why you were bullied? What were you doing that caused the children to torment you? At a young age you couldn’t be expected to know hence my question as to “Why children are not taught how to react to teasing and bullying.” If you had taken no notice of the words directed at you and befriended your antagonists, things could have been different but children don’t know this.
In an ideal world yes, but with my bullies, making friends with them was out of the question - they would not have accepted me and ignoring them just increased the bullying and so did responding to it by way of asking "why are you so nasty to me?". Sometimes bullying can be resolved by talking and education, but I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of bullies have such a different psychology and thought processes that it takes more than a simple talk to sort it out. Bullying is a complex issue for the instigator and poor soul on the receiving end.

I fail to see how with the Alma Pudden example, admitting she was plump would have helped. If anything, I don't see why Alma should have openly agreed that she was plump. I daresay she was aware of the fact and it was obvious to all and sundry. Personally. I think the instigators needed a swift talking to and bringing down a peg or two about their behaviour. So, Alma Pudden is plump? Forgive me, but big deal! If that's all her tormentors can see that it's their problem not hers and why she has to play into their hands and admit her "fault" of being plump is beyond my comprehension. Who the heck made them God? Admitting her "fault" just condones their treatment of Alma and to be honest, is a very weak and pushing-it-under-the-carpet method of dealing with it. So, I disagree with Enid's suggestion of dealing with this and I'll say that she is very naive in thinking this will work.

If anything, this condoning of bullying in the school series is what turns me off them and makes me think that all the speeches about being upstanding citizens is complete and utter nonsense.

Hijacking the thread a bit there, but bullying is a subject that I feel strongly about. BAck to the golliwog discussion...

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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by lizarfau »

Robert Houghton wrote:I found your comments about Julian rather insulting too. people from Arab countries can read and write english, you know, often better than people from so-called English countries, and they do have feelings too. Your comments came across as extremely bigoted, and again, ill-informed.
Absolutely.

And how many Westerners could go onto any non-English message board and write any message at all?

As for suggesting that the Alma Pudden storyline shows kids how they can deal with bullies ... well, to me it's right up there with suggesting that those cops investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann would do better if they read the Five Find-Outer books and disguised themselves Fatty-like to solve the mystery.
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Re: The Three Golliwogs

Post by Rob Houghton »

hear, hear!

The bullying episodes in the school books, particularly regarding Alma Pudden, just go towards demonstrating just how little Enid knew about being bullied. It proves she herself was never actually bullied, because she was a popular (and forceful) member of her school.

What good would admitting you are fat do? Why admit you are at fault for being unfashionable/poor/rich/black/white/old/young/disabled etc etc. None of these are good reasons to be bullied, surely?

'Oh, sorry bullies: I'm black/disabled/unfashionable/poor etc, so I quite understand why you're bullying me, so go ahead...' What a load of rubbish.
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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