Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Not surprisingly, 'William and the Nasties' didn't make it into the 1995 volume William at War. 'William and the Tea-Cake' is my favourite story in that collection. It's a spy story and is beautifully set up, with engaging characters and an extremely satisfying ending.

Only last week we ordered two DVDs of Just William - the 2010 dramatisation starring Daniel Roche as William, and the 1977/78 series starring Adrian Dannatt. We've watched all four 2010 stories and enjoyed them - Daniel makes a very natural William - though certain liberties were taken with some of the characters like Ethel and Robert and I think William tended to overshadow the rest of the Outlaws. The 1970s series takes me back to when I first saw it as a child, though we've only had time to watch two episodes so far. It strikes me as more "stagey" and slower-paced, though I've only had a small taste of it. Another thing that makes the two series very different is that the 1970s series focusses on William in the 1920s, whereas the modern dramatisation is set in the 1950s. Richmal Crompton's stories span several decades, though I believe that William is eternally eleven years old.
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

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I loved the 2010 series on tv, so much that I still have a couple that I've yet to watch! (I series linked them on V+) I love the 50s, so it wasn't too much of a bind to see the era moved. Although I've a set of William p/backs, it is quite some time since I read them. I've said before, I think it is a pity that they are mostly short stories. But that's just my opinion!
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

Post by Timmylover »

Moonraker wrote:Having read Timmylover's comment on William and The Nasties, in the volume, William the Detective, I was prompted to look it up.

Image

WtD certainly has a disturbing cover, but let's put it into context. It was first published in 1935, quite a few years before the Nazis'atrocities were committed.
This is not a very pleasant topic to discuss on my birthday but I feel that some comment is necessary. Although 1935 pre-dated the Holocaust it was in that year that the infamous Nuremburg Laws were passed. When the Nazis came to power in 1933 "The Jewish Question" inspired discriminatory anti-Jewish legislation, including anti-Jewish economic boycotts and the infamous burning of books. The Nuremburg Laws demanded the total separation of so-called "Aryans" and "non-Aryans" thereby legalising a racist hierarchy. Jews were barred from employment as lawyers, doctors, university professors, journalists and other professions. Public parks, libraries and beaches were closed to the Jews and they were also prohibited from using state hospitals. War memorials had Jewish names removed from them and Jews were forbidden to join the Wehrmacht, even though many thousands had died fighting for the "Fatherland" in the First World War. Anti-Semitic propaganda was displayed in shops and restaurants and many violent attacks were made on Jews. All the horrors of Nazi Germany's behaviour towards the Jews in 1935 would have been known by Richmal Crompton, as they were to the rest of the world.
Moonraker wrote:I think that, given the era, it would be quite normal for a group of young boys to 'play' at being Mr Hitler. There was quite a bit of ant-semitism evident at this time, and if there was a sweet-shop owner who was cheating on his customers, these kids would taunt him.
Given the era I think it was extremely misguided, rather than normal, for young English boys wanting to emulate Hitler. "Quite a bit of anti-Semitism" could no longer be taken lightly. The sweet shop owner who was apparently cheating, was, it must be remembered, a creation of Crompton herself. He was described by her as a "hook-nosed little man". As you say you haven't read the story, Nigel, I will enlighten you a little as to the kids' "taunting".

Henry tells William that in Germany, "They chase out Jews...cause Jews are rich...so they chase 'em out and take all the stuff they leave behind." Here, Crompton is perniciously enforcing anti-Semitic stereotyping of all Jews being wealthy. William expresses the desire to do some "chasing out" of his own, but decides that the Outlaws can't, because there are no Jews in their village. Ginger reminds him that "Ole Mr Isaacs is a Jew ... Yes he's a Jew all right ...an' if we were in Germany an' we were nasties we could chase him out an' take everything in his shop. You're allowed to by lor in Germany."

Their first two attempts at driving out Mr Isaacs involved displaying a home drawn swastika in front of his shop in order to try and scare him. When this did not work they decided on some other "taunting". Henry explained, "They've got people called storm troops an' when these Jews don't run away they knock 'em about till they do."

Moonraker wrote:Richmal Crompton was reported to have regrets about her story in later years, but given the time, I don't think she committed a cardinal sin.
Richmal Crompton never expressed any regrets about the story, at any time. Her niece (also Richmal Crompton) did. You may think that "given the time" Crompton didn't commit a cardinal sin. I would suggest that, especially at that time, racism was most certainly a cardinal sin
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

Post by Lucky Star »

Moonraker wrote:Having read Timmylover's comment on William and The Nasties, in the volume, William the Detective, I was prompted to look it up.

Image

WtD
William and the nasties doesn't feature in William The dictator. I haven't read ..nasties in years but William the Dictator is one of only three William books I have with dustjackets although its a bit tatty. The cover doesn't bother me at all. Unfortunately the world and, to a large extent, the UK vastly underestimated Hitler up until at least 1938 and the Kristallnacht events. The Nuremberg laws did not cause much stir in this country, politicians were much more concerned with Hitler's rearmament programme and he was even being praised in many quarters for the way he had turned Germany's disastrous economic situation around.

The mistreatment of the Jews was certainly known about but for most people outside Germany it really wasn't that urgent a topic. Even as war broke out and Hitler directly threatened the lives of the jews the allied governments were refusing to take jewish refugees in any great numbers. With regards to the William stories I think they reflect the kind of thinking prevalent at the time and nothing else. With hindsight we can see that they were misguided but with hindsight we can see everything. The fact that William and the Nasties was rarely republished in later years demonstrates that its unsuitability was recognised. I always thought Richmal Crompton expressed regret about the story, interesting to hear that it was her niece.

As to it being a cardinal sin I disagree. That is a view that can be expressed with hindsight but, crucially, at the time she could have had no idea about what was to come. Like Blyton's (and others) use of the word Nigger she was simply writing what was everyday and normal in those times. We are more enlightened now but who is to say that things we take for granted now may not be taboo in another 60 years time?
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

Post by Timmylover »

I'm afraid that you appear to have missed the point I was making, Lucky Star. My original post, made several months ago on the Roald Dahl thread, concerned the fact that although Dahl was known to be anti-Semitic he never made it apparent in any of his works, whereas Crompton made her racist views very clear in that distasteful story that appeared in William the Detective.
Lucky Star wrote:With regards to the William stories I think they reflect the kind of thinking prevalent at the time and nothing else.
I would be interested to know what your sources are that may validate this statement. It disturbs me that anyone should seek to make excuses for someone who, in their own words, demonstrates a degree of racism that was quite extreme. I was nine years old when I read this story, with no real knowledge of Nazi Germany, yet I realised that Richmal Crompton had overstepped the boundaries of decency. To attempt to poison the minds of children with one's own warped prejudices is unforgivable.
Lucky Star wrote:With hindsight we can see that they were misguided but with hindsight we can see everything.
One doesn't need hindsight to recognise that something is very, very wrong at the time it's happening. I am not impressed by this type of generalisation which does not adequately express an opinion.
Lucky Star wrote:she was simply writing what was everyday and normal in those times.
She was most certainly not. This comment is yet another misleading and inaccurate generalisation which discredits the morality of many people.
Lucky Star wrote:We are more enlightened now
Are we?
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

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As you appear to have missed the point that I was making. I am not defending the story nor, by implication, defending anti semitism. You, however, are applying 21st century morals to 1930s writing which I believe to be a mistake. Richmal Crompton may have been anti semitic but alas she was not alone at that time. Many contemporary stories such as Herge's Tintin contained references or material which is TODAY considered racist and offensive. The important thing is that it was NOT considered to be so at the time it was written.

In The Secret Mountain Blyton portrays Mafumu's tribe as being in awe of the white people who descended from the sky and showed them mirrors. In The River of Adventure she portrays Oola as being in awe of Philip whom he calls "Lord". Neither of these instances would be permitted today but Blyton was not racist, in both cases the two black boys send up saving the day and showing themselves to be fine people. Its been a long time since I read Willam and the Nasties but I seem to remember that the "Nasties" end up looking and feeling very foolish - hardly glamorous. The story was a parody, a send up of the strutting cocks then ruling Germany. I do not believe for a moment that Crompton's intention was to "poison the minds of children with her own warped prejudices".

The William stories reflect their times. In other stories William paints his dog blue for a show or trains him to kill rats; there was later critiscism from the RSPCA about these stories but again I doubt that Crompton was advocating animal cruelty.
Timmylover wrote:
Lucky Star wrote:With regards to the William[/i] stories I think they reflect the kind of thinking prevalent at the time and nothing else.
I would be interested to know what your sources are that may validate this statement.
In Stephen H Roberts 1937 book The House That Hitler Built he relates the story of an English peer who visited a Hitler Youth training camp. The peer said to one of the officers in charge; "Gad this is a marvellous camp. Its just like the boy scouts, only better. Do you think you would let my son come here for a few months to get the spirit of it?" If you care to read the excellent series of books by Simon Garfield which are based on the diaries of actual persons alive during the late 1930s, 40s and 50s you will see quite clearly that even though people do not approve of the persecution of the jews which they occassionally read about, neither do they regard it as something that particularly affects their own lives. This attitude, of course, changed radically in the aftermath of the war.
Timmylover wrote:
One doesn't need hindsight to recognise that something is very, very wrong at the time it's happening. I am not impressed by this type of generalisation which does not adequately express an opinion.
Even when the allied leaders received reports of the holocaust from jewish sources late in the war they either disbelieved them or thought them exaggerated. Nobody had any comprehension of the truth. And as for not adequately expressing an opinion it IS my opinion that it is only with hindsight that we see how wrong this story was. It was not evident at the time of writing.

I spent eight months working on a kibbitz in Israel and have visited Yad Vashem (Israel's holocaust museum), Auschwitz and Dachau as well as the Jewish museum in Krakow. I do not undersetimate the Holocaust nor trivialise it. It was the greatest crime humanity ever committed. You, however, are reading far too much into a rather unfortunately themed story.
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

Post by Timmylover »

Lucky Star wrote:As you appear to have missed the point that I was making. I am not defending the story nor, by implication, defending anti semitism. You, however, are applying 21st century morals to 1930s writing which I believe to be a mistake.
You certainly appeared to be defending the story, and still are. I was not implying that you are anti-Semitic, rather expressing dismay that someone should be so keen to defend the anti_Semitism of another. Why do you think that I am "applying 21st Century morals" when I have already explained that this story deeply affected me when I was nine years old, which was 57 years ago?
Lucky Star wrote: Richmal Crompton may have been anti semitic but alas she was not alone at that time. Many contemporary stories such as Herge's Tintin contained references or material which is TODAY considered racist and offensive. The important thing is that it was NOT considered to be so at the time it was written.
Is that supposed to be some sort of defence, that because others were also writing racially offensive material Crompton's story is somehow acceptable? Some may not have considered it to be offensive at the time it was written, but certainly not all, which is what you are implying.
Lucky Star wrote: The story was a parody, a send up of the strutting cocks then ruling Germany. I do not believe for a moment that Crompton's intention was to "poison the minds of children with her own warped prejudices".


I do not believe that is true. If the story was a parody it was a very clumsy attempt, and indiscernible to the child readership for which it was intended.


Lucky Star wrote:In Stephen H Roberts 1937 book The House That Hitler Built he relates the story of an English peer who visited a Hitler Youth training camp. The peer said to one of the officers in charge; "Gad this is a marvellous camp. Its just like the boy scouts, only better. Do you think you would let my son come here for a few months to get the spirit of it?" If you care to read the excellent series of books by Simon Garfield which are based on the diaries of actual persons alive during the late 1930s, 40s and 50s you will see quite clearly that even though people do not approve of the persecution of the jews which they occassionally read about, neither do they regard it as something that particularly affects their own lives. This attitude, of course, changed radically in the aftermath of the war.


This still does not reflect the prevalent views of all the "actual persons alive during the late 1930s, 40s and 50s". As I was born on the day that the North German army surrendered I was fortunate enough to hear, first hand, the views of those who lived through, and experienced the period 1933-1945. This included people from various backgrounds and different countries. Although apathy and indifference affected some, it is not accurate to assume that it included everyone.

Certainly the extent of the Holocaust was not fully appreciated until after the event by those who had not experienced it. This, however, is not relevant to my original comments concerning Richmal Crompton.

Lucky Star wrote:I spent eight months working on a kibbitz in Israel and have visited Yad Vashem (Israel's holocaust museum), Auschwitz and Dachau as well as the Jewish museum in Krakow. I do not undersetimate the Holocaust nor trivialise it. It was the greatest crime humanity ever committed. You, however, are reading far too much into a rather unfortunately themed story.


It's always interesting to learn of the experiences of others. I too have spent some considerable time on various kibbutzim and am also familiar with Yad Vashem and the other places you mention, with the exception of Auschwitz. I could not bear to set foot in that place. It would be most interesting to discuss aspects of Holocaust history with you, given the opportunity, as I have spent many years studying and researching what you correctly describe as "the greatest crime humanity ever committed". It was not, however, with that knowledge that I first encountered the awful story I originally referred to. I'm afraid that I wasn't, and am still not, reading too much into it. Crompton was a racist, and that's something that I abhor.
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Timmylover wrote:
Lucky Star wrote:I spent eight months working on a kibbitz in Israel...
I too have spent some considerable time on various kibbutzim...
I was interested to read of both your experiences as I also worked on a kibbutz for two months - Kibbutz Shefayim - and I visited nearby Kibbutz Gaash as well.

A couple of weeks ago I took my son to the Imperial War Museum in London. There's a whole section devoted to the Holocaust, with film clips of interviews with survivors - it really brings home the suffering and terror that people endured.
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

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Anita Bensoussane wrote:There's a whole section devoted to the Holocaust, with film clips of interviews with survivors - it really brings home the suffering and terror that people endured.
Although I was aware of the general atrocities of the war through various TV programmes, history lessons etc. I don't think I really appreciated the personal level until a couple of years ago. A friend of my children's is of Polish descent. He mentioned that he doesn't know anything about his Great Grandfather who 'disappeared' during the war - I think he said 'the blockade'. Anyway, I have quite a keen sense of family history and have visited the graves of a number of deceased relatives, and have seen census entries for numerous others. It just struck me as being dreadful that this family had no idea, of how, when, or where their father/grandfather died.

Back to Just William, my mother is a big fan, but I think has only recent paperback books. I know she loved the recent TV series, and we all vaguely remembered the 1970s series with Bonnie Langford saying she'd 'scream and scream until she was sick!', so I bought it for her for her recent birthday. I think she's had long enough to watch it, so I'll be asking to borrow it soon!! :D
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

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That's amazing, Anita. I wonder if any other forumites have spent time on a kibbutz. My first stay was on Kibbutz Hasolelim, near Nazareth. I was there for almost two years, from 1966 to 1968. I am still in touch with friends there, including one of the founders who is now in his 90s. I also spent some time on Kibbutz Glil Yam which is, of course, close to both Shefayim and Gaash, and also at Beit Hashita, Huqoq, Degania Aleph and Kfar Hanassi. I also worked as an organiser of student working holidays on kibbutz, which enabled me to regularly visit dozens of kibbutzim and also to accompany the groups of students on their week-long tours of the country at the end of their kibbutz stays. I also spent several seasons on the excavations at Hazor and Tel Dan. I wrote my Masters thesis on an important Aramaic inscription which was discovered at Tel Dan.

My first, of many, visits to Yad Vashem was in 1966. There is also a smaller museum at Kibbutz Lochmei HaGitaot which was founded by the surviving fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto revolt. I was very pleased when the Imperial War Museum opened its permanent exhibition on the Holocaust. The photographic and oral evidence is certainly very harrowing.
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

You obviously have a lot of experience of kibbutzim, Deborah.
Timmylover wrote:I also spent several seasons on the excavations at Hazor and Tel Dan. I wrote my Masters thesis on an important Aramaic inscription which was discovered at Tel Dan.
That sounds fascinating. While at Kibbutz Shefayim I read James A. Michener's The Source, in which he looks at the history of a region of Israel through a (fictional) archaeological dig. I found it gripping and have read it again several times since.
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

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I really love The Source, thanks for mentioning it Anita as I haven't read it for several years and your post has prompted a reread. Did you know that the fictional tell of Makor is based on Hazor? Makor is the Hebrew word for 'source'. I first read the book around 1965, a year before my initial stay in Israel. At that time I never dreamt that I would actually be working on the excavations on which the book is based in the not too distant future.
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

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Timmylover wrote:Did you know that the fictional tell of Makor is based on Hazor?
Yes, I'd heard Makor was based on Hazor but had forgotten - I think there's a note about that in my copy of The Source. How exciting that you had the opportunity to work on those excavations, Deborah. Enjoy your re-read!

(Sorry to have strayed from the topic of the William books - I promise to post in this thread next time I read some William stories! :) )
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

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I thought perhaps there was a prize for the person who has travelled to the most outlandish place! My digs have been confined to the chalk-pit at West Harnham ( a suburb of Salisbury) and my back garden. Oh, and I have been known to have a dig around in the Cave of Books. :roll:
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Re: Just William Books by Richmal Crompton

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Not to mention trying to take a dig at those who have been fortunate enough to have led more interesting lives.
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