Learning Welsh (and Other Languages)

[Courtenay]

It's interesting that Cornish doesn't have the "ll" sound. Welsh also has the "ch" sound (as in the Scottish word "loch") - is that found in Cornish? And do the initial letters of some Cornish words mutate in certain situations, as they do in Welsh?

Yes, Cornish has the same kind of first-letter mutations as Welsh. For example, "benyn" (woman) becomes "an venyn" (the woman), and the verb "gul" (do) becomes "i wul" (do it).

I've heard it pointed out that rather than learning complex charts of mutations and all the rules governing them, it's better to just pick them up and get used to them as you go. They do just sort of make sense as you speak the language out loud.

For all I know, Cornish might have had the "ll" sound historically, and it got lost when the language died out in the late 18th century - there was no audio equipment invented then, of course, to record what the native speakers actually sounded like!

In modern written Cornish, "ch" is pronounced as in "chair". There is a "gh" sound that's a bit like the Welsh/Scottish "ch", but a little softer. I think the hard "ch" may be spelled "kh", but haven't got far enough with my lessons yet! I've had other priorities and put the "Say Something In" course aside lately, but I will get back to it. Meanwhile, I've had fun practising in my own time by making up my own sentences based on the words I know so far!

[Courtenay]

"Fish 'n' chips" sounds great in Welsh - "pysgod a sglodion"!

On this tasty note, I just found out (from a concise English-Cornish dictionary I downloaded) that "fish 'n' chips" in Cornish are "pysk hag asklon".

[Anita Bensoussane]

Such a vital phrase as "pysgod a sglodion"/"pysk hag asklon" ought to have been included in the very first lesson!

Thanks for the information on sounds and mutations in Cornish, Courtenay. One of the Welsh words for "woman" (there are several) is "benyw", which is similar to the Cornish "benyn". There doesn't appear to be much similarity between "gwneud" (the Welsh word for "do") and "gul" (the Cornish word), though they begin with the same letter and may have come from a common root centuries ago. I just looked up a few more everyday words and was struck by the resemblance between the Welsh and the Cornish:

water - dŵr (Welsh) - dowr (Cornish)

lake - llyn (Welsh) - llyn or lydn (Cornish)

to sleep - cysgu (Welsh) - koska (Cornish)

Regarding mutations, I think you do get a "feel" for them as you speak the language, although it's useful to know a few basic rules.

I was surprised to learn that "Gorffennaf" (July) means, literally, "end of summer" ("gorffen" means "end" and "haf" means "summer"). Doesn't August count as summer, then?!

Not in Wales usually, no. Then again half the time June and July hardly count as summer either!

Though I must say that when I moved from North Wales to Manchester, it seemed to rain more often in Manchester.

[Deej]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... s-scotland" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very interesting article on why Welsh should be taught in British schools. I think the writer makes some good points, much of which I agree with.

[Anita Bensoussane]

Thanks for the link, Deej. It's a very interesting proposal and I particularly like this statement by Ellie Mae O'Hagan:

Welsh evolved from Brittonic (meaning indigenous Breton, as opposed to Anglo-Saxon), and until the Romans came along, it was spoken in England too. The Welsh language is not a backwards, insignificant thing; it is a fundamental part of Britain's collective history. I find it absurd that so few English people realise it is still spoken in families and communities across Wales, as part of a Brittonic culture which has survived through the ages.

[Deej]

It is indeed a good point, Anita. Anyone who can't believe Welsh is spoken in significant numbers amongst families and entire communities in the UK should make a visit to Caernarfon, North Wales. In excess of 80% speak Welsh!

[Courtenay]

I'd love to see Cornish more widely taught in schools too (yeah, I know, here I go again). It's already had to be resurrected from extinction once, and could still do with a lot more people to help it grow!

That said, it's understandable that school budgets tend to be spent on what is considered most "useful", and it could easily be argued that learning a more widely spoken language - like French, Spanish, or even Mandarin - is more worthwhile in equipping young people for possible future careers. So I can see both sides to the argument.

[walter raleigh]

Intersting article Deej, but if, as claimed, Welsh was widely spoken in England it's curious how very few words have made it into modern day English. In fact I can't think of any, while there are quite a few instances of Persian or Indian words (for example) that are in everyday use.

[Deej]

That said, it's understandable that school budgets tend to be spent on what is considered most "useful", and it could easily be argued that learning a more widely spoken language - like French, Spanish, or even Mandarin - is more worthwhile in equipping young people for possible future careers. So I can see both sides to the argument.

I think you make a valid point. However, I have to agree with the general sentiment of the article. Welsh is the second most spoken language in the UK and one of the oldest in Europe. I think it deserves to be taught in all British schools when the likelihood of all UK citizens visiting or working in Wales (welsh speaking areas included) at some time in their life is quite high. It's a next door neighbour and I would argue it's equally if not more important than French, German or Spanish!

[daanton]

Any of you at any time checked out the Colin & Cumberland mini website of BBC Wales, part of BBC's overall Learning Welsh websites? Now left online as a reference site (ie: no longer updated), this series offers a fun, interactive way for younger learners to learn Welsh (whether Northern or Southern Welsh, this you select first before entering the website proper).

[Anita Bensoussane]

Thanks, Daanton. I'll have to take a look at that website when I have the time.

... if, as claimed, Welsh was widely spoken in England it's curious how very few words have made it into modern day English.

It was Brittonic (a Celtic language) that was spoken throughout Britain, and Welsh is one of the languages which developed from that. When the Anglo-Saxons invaded, the Celts were pushed to the extreme North and West of Britain. Some words that have come into English from Celtic languages include "crag" (from "craig"), "bard" (from "bardd"), "coombe" (from "cwm"), "gull" (from "gwylan"), "lawn" (from "llan") and "crumpet" (from "crempog").

... it's understandable that school budgets tend to be spent on what is considered most "useful", and it could easily be argued that learning a more widely spoken language - like French, Spanish, or even Mandarin - is more worthwhile in equipping young people for possible future careers.

I think you make a valid point. However, I have to agree with the general sentiment of the article. Welsh is the second most spoken language in the UK and one of the oldest in Europe. I think it deserves to be taught in all British schools when the likelihood of all UK citizens visiting or working in Wales (welsh speaking areas included) at some time in their life is quite high. It's a next door neighbour and I would argue it's equally if not more important than French, German or Spanish!

Most schools teach children two languages, so pupils could learn Welsh in addition to a more widely spoken language.

[Daisy]

I guess it would be necessary for a teacher of Welsh to be on the staff and I wonder how many of them there are at the moment?

[Moonraker]

Very interesting article on why Welsh should be taught in British schools.

It might be an idea to teach English first.

[Courtenay]

Hear hear, Nigel!

[Deej]

It might be an idea to teach English first.

I was under the impression that the author advocated teaching English in all British schools, as well as Welsh/Scottish and any other complementary languages such as French, German and Spanish.

I think this is important in order to preserve the Welsh language, especially in the most Welsh speaking areas. Current census figures show the language is on the decline (only around 20% of Wales speak Welsh).

There is definitely an 'arrogant' form of English nationalism (feeling of superiority over their neighbours) which does exist that is fuelling support for Scottish and Welsh independence. There does need to be changes and not just economic ones, but also the social and cultural attitude of the Westminster government towards the Scottish/Welsh/Irish neighbours if Scotland votes to remain in the union.